Harsh Hops

[wildcrafter]

I had a beer yesterday that was 65 IBU's of Centennial hops. I found it far too harsh and I love hops. I guess I don't like 65 IBU's of Centennial hops.

What is the "harsh aspect"/"harsh chemistry" of Centennial hops and what other hops have this harshness? I want to avoid this/these flavors.

I bet if the beer at 65 IBU's was made with another hops, I might have liked it. What hops would you put in a nice ale for 65 IBU's of great flavor?

I must say, I now read the labels so I can avoid Centennial hops and the biting, unpleasant, harshness that seems to go with them.

Is it just me?

[kugeman]

Were there other factors of this particular beer that led to a perception of "harshness"? How much abv? What was the malt profile like? Was the finished gravity particularly low (dry tasting)? While it's possible that some hops may come off as more aggressive/harsh tasting, I also think that it's possible to create a pleasant, balanced overall taste with these hops.

I'm sure that someone out there is making a 65 IBU beer with Centennials that has the right balance of malt and alcohol to avoid a "harsh" overall taste.

[jarviw]

harsh bitterness (astringency) can be contributed to a lot of things...
water hardness, pH, over-extraction during lautering (husk polyphenols), over-dose of roasted malts....

While I do believe US hops in general has more polyphenol content, I don't think Centennial is all that bad at all. Personally I think as long as the beer is balanced with hop/malt/sweetness/bitterness, it should always be drinkable. Although I also think many "craft drinkers" loves that kind of bold hop flavors, regardless how drinkable it is according to our brewing textbooks.

maybe it's just how that beer was brewed?

[wildcrafter]

The info from the brewsite says, "european malts......6.5%ABV.......big post-boil hop addition.....merengue-like head, copper color,...bracing finish...assertive but deftly balanced".

Maybe this is the design of the beer and I just don't like it.

I really do think that a different hop might affect the flavor quite a bit.

What hop would you use that might not be quite as harsh(if the harshness is from the hops)?

If the harshness is from the hops, are you saying that is would be the polyphenols only?

[canyon]

Everyone has their own palate

Chinook is another hop that can go into the harsh category with too heavy a use. I like that hop lightly used bittering and flavoring but I had to get to know the harsh line by going over it a few times. But like others mentioned, there are so many variables involved in the flavors/aromas that it is unfair to the hop to take a bottle off the shelf that says its 65 IBU's Centennial and then decide that hop is not your friend because it tastes harsh. IBU's attempt to quantify something that numbers can't describe accurately. I think you'll find that if you get to know Centennial you might appreciate what it can bring into the equation if you stay on the good side of the harsh line. Or maybe not!

[jarviw]

so you had a bottled sample... Well, then more variable goes in.

In general, old, oxidized beer never taste drinkable...
There was this IPA I had tried right off the BBT sampling port, and I finally found it distributed in our state just before thanksgiving, but 2 weeks past its expiration date... In my memory it was clean, smooth, drinkable, with nice hop aroma and flavor without tasting too hoppy. But this bottle was definitely "hoppy"... heavy hop flavor, lack of the delicate hop aroma, astringent, and in general not very drinkable.

So, a bottled sample may not always do the hop (or beer) justice...

Although, from a different angle, maybe there are some hops that can sit in an old bottle better than others...

[liammckenna]

pH being too high is my guess. Try a bench test adding a small amount of lactic or phosphoric acid to see if harshness still predominates.

Jarviw is right. This harshness could come from many different aspects of the process. Let's not start trashing Centennial.

Pax.

Liam

[burlybeer]

Found this:

"Dale's Pale Ale is our flagship beer and America's first hand-canned craft beer. It's an assertive but deftly balanced beer (somewhere between an American pale ale and an India Pale Ale) brewed with hefty amounts of European malts and American hops.

It features a merengue-like head, a copper color, and a hoppy nose, thanks to a big post-boil addition of Centennial hops. To complement its hoppy first impression, Dale's also sports a rich middle of malts and hops, and a bracing finish. Dale's is 6.5% alcohol by volume, and features 65 International Bittering Units."

Is this the beer you tasted?

I find this beer to be very drinkable, YMMV. Nowhere does it mention that it has "65 IBU's of Centennial", Indeed DPA is made with multiple hops...maybe one of the others doesn't agree with you, or maybe its something else entirely like others have mentioned.

Centennial is/was one of my favorite hops.

[banjo]

Bitter?

I think you need to join all of us in the basement of the Falling Rock in Denver next fall for the Alpha King contest during GABF. It'll give the term bitter a whole new meaning. I mean that in a good way of course.

[grassrootsvt]

Centennial is one of my favorite hops. The harshness of the beer that you tasted, as has been mentioned, could have come from any number of directions: your palate and personal taste (do you *like* 65 ibu beer?), bicarbonate/alkalinity being too high - poor water treatment. Have you had other beers from this brewery? Are they reputable? What about a draft offering? Centennial is a great all purpose hop - mid-range cohumulone, great aromatics and oils... As also mentioned above, I too have had negative experiences with Chinook (think 2 year old Rogue Imperial Stout and an aftertaste that wouldn't leave me alone...) if used in disproportionate bittering additions. However, if used in conjunction with other hops, wisely, Chinook compliments...
So... maybe you could write to the brewer/brewery and learn more?

[wildcrafter]

These are all very informative responses and I thank you.

I do agree we all have our own palate, senses, and memories to draw from to interpret our beer tasting experiences. It really promotes diversity in our tasting options.

I didn't want to point at the beer responsible for this post because in some regards, I really liked the beer,,,,to the point that I wondered what other hop could have replaced the Cenntennial for a much mellower 65 IBU experience. I vicariously felt pride in this beer that I found too harsh. I like the idea of pumping up the hops, but I guess I want a different flavor option than the one I got. I understand that the balance of this beer probably leans more to a hop dominance rather than a malt dominance.

I ask this harshness question about the hops because I hear of many thoughts about the hop component of harshness. I hear that it can be a ratio of humulone to cohumulone as well as many other things. I have heard mention of one hops relative to another in regards to a harsh bite(which can have a "job" when balanced with the sugar side).

I don't know how to rephrase the question(s) other than perhaps, "Is there an order of harsh hops to non-harsh hops? If so, what chemistries in the hops would be responsible for this harshness? Is this just a 65 IBU question? Is "harshness" a lack of other chemistries in the hops that just doesn't give a balanced flavor?

Any thoughts?

[Øl-sheik]

The Co-humulone content might give you an idea of how the bitterness is percieved from each hops. Its isomeres do not contribute to the level of bitterness but to is perception, since they are supposed to cause a broad and lingering bitter impression. Harsh ? Centennial co-humulone content seems to be just fine, no worries here. One reason why less and less Brewers Gold hop is grown world wide.

Amongst the hop oil fraction look for the myrcene content. This oil is supposed to give a rough and ignoble nuance to the beer. Again according to the pro brewer hop data sheet Centennial shows no specificly high myrcene content, as f.ex. Simcoe does. Positive for the aroma quality are Humulene,Caryophyllene and Farnesene oils.

as mentioned couple times before does the wort ph have a direct influence on the bitterness perception, as for example filtration of the finish beer has. Ionised salt like Ca ions will result in a more intensiv bitterness, so hard water or water with high bi-carbonat levels gives harsher hop impressions

and I absolutly agree with grassrootsvt that personal taste and your palate are a key factor, what you consider as harsh the next brewers considers as the most tasty hop bite on earth.

[brewbonghm]

Harsh bitterness may sometimes be a byproduct of the beer being over-carbonated. The best thing to do is take a straw w/the paper on swirl it in the beer to degas and try it again. Many times at a pub the gas regulation on a draft system combined w/the very cold temperature will bump the CO2 levels far above where the brewer intended them to be, carbonic acid is harsh.

[Geoff Logan]

oh so many factors...

Let me beat on this staggering horse while it's still alive. First, I love centennial hops. They are oh so tasty and, in my experience, not harsh at all. Take in to consideration what you consumed before you tried this beer. pH, as mentioned before, is also a good place to look. All in all, everyone has different preferences and yours happens to be WRONG. Just kidding. Try another beer that's predominantly hopped with Cent. before writing it off. My 2 cents.

[wildcrafter]

OK!-How about harsh but not Centennial?

I sure didn't mean to upset anyone over the Centennial thoughts. How about some different hops to discuss?

I brewed (3) 10gal batches 2 days in a row. 6 batches, 6 different hops, same recipe, timing, everything. Just different hops. Simple ale.

I can taste the harshness of a couple varieties--not any plants you'd know---these are our plants from breedings. Great plants,,,, odd flavors-- (TO ME,,,,,it's like strong Centennial, but let's not go there please.)

Flavor is kinda back of the tongueish, odd and not appealing, won't go away,,,,,harsh. IBUs at 39, light Briess dry malt, nottingham yeast. Don't like this flavor, love the plant,,,what's this flavor??? Whatever it is, I'm not liking it...and it's our plant.

4 other batches came out stellar with fantastic citrus, flower, spice, and other beautiful flavors and aromas and clarity. All same, same,,,just the different varieties of hops.

Side by side trial,,,the harshness is there. Others have aggreed. What is it?