Basement brewpub vents

[mikedeich_]

hello everyone

I am starting a brewpub, and my 7 bbl brewhouse & fermentors will be located in the basement. What sort of ventilation/fans does anyone suggest to avoid CO2 and steam buildup? I am plannin to have two vent hoods, but am unsure how strong of fans I need. Any thoughts would be appreciated. Or if you know of any other brewpubs with basement operations, that I might be able to contact and ask, that would also work. thanks.

[dick murton]

Don't do it - it is too risky

In the UK at least it would almost certainly not even be legally allowed as it would be considered a confined working space, with all sorts of access restrictions. Don't forget that numerous people (and animals !! I speak from experience) have died due to entering FVs which contain CO2, either from the fermentation in the vessel, or because of overspill from neighbouring vessels.

So the first thing I would do is find out whether this is leagally permitted in your locality.

After that - high flow low level, i.e. floor level extraction fans, and high CO2 / low oxygen monitoring kit, linked to additional extraction fans and alarm systems.

Not sure about fan sizing. You need to work out the CO2 production peak rate, and then speak to a qualified ventilation engineer who will guarantee 100% safe access

But good luck with the project - in an above ground area - for your own and others safety (I have worked in 3 breweries where people have died of CO2 asphyxiation - none when I was working there I am pleased to say)

Cheers

[beertje46]

You'll also need to plan for fresh make-up air as well.

[SRB]

Didnt Rogue start in a basement?....Eske's in Toas is in a basment..very confined....not that I dont think Dick should be listened too! He should!!
I imagine there is a good chance that the building makes cents in alot of ways for your project. Get a TOP NOTCH mechanical/hvac/refridge/propane guru to help get the right vents and air make up.....its going to be relatively complicated....and among all the other points Dick is right get your local inspector/office in there to tell you what they are going to require.
Good Luck!!

[liammckenna]

Ditto again, Dick.

We process beer in the cellar of our building. High volume, floor level extraction vents are essential. Air movement also helps (fan) prevent pooling.

Speak to HVAC engineers.

Pax.

Liam

[mikedeich_]

Thanks everybody, keep it coming. Dick I appreciate and understand your concerns. I have no intention of suffocating in a basement, what an embarrassing way to die. Legally we are allowed to set the basement for brewing operations. We have city inspectors/fire department/ & a construction crew who need to approve that all things are safe. The biggest question in regard to keeping it that way is how much CO2 might be purged and accumulated at one time. We plan to have a 14bbl fermentor and 2 7bbl. Along with 6 brite tanks, also 7 bbl, which we will be serving off of. Maintaining 15 psi in each. Cleaning these means releasing at least 14bbl worth of CO2 of varying PSI, but I really dont know how to measure this to explain to our engineers/inspectors. I will try consulting a HVAC specialist and see how that goes. thanks again everyone.

[Chris Garrett]

CO2 Volume in tank?

Mike,

How's Argentina treating you? How soon are you guys up and running?

I would vent your tanks outside and not into the basement.

Like Dick Murton said, I would also invest in a CO2 Monitoring system like this: http://www.chart-ind.com/app_fb_co2_monitoring.cfm (buy and install two in case one fails).

For your ventilation system, do you need volume of CO2 produced from fermentation or total volume of CO2 from an empty brite tank or both? What are they asking you for specifically?

Cheers,

Chris

[Jim Lieb]

The previous place I worked, we set up a vent pipe to outside so that when we blew down the tanks for cleaning we could hook up the tanks to the outside vent using a quick disconnect to the CO2 inlet valve. This eliminated excess CO2 from entering the room at this time, which is the main CO2 source other than fermentation.

Jim Lieb
Rocky River Brewing Co.

[mikedeich_]

hey chris, hows it going? Thanks for the link, we definitely plan to invest in a CO2 system like that. Things are going good here, just much slower than we would like. The construction is behind, our container is locked in customs, and the brew system hasnt left the states. So its anyone's guess when we will actually get open. Progress is being made, and many things are cheaper like we hoped, so atleast its not all bad.

As far as the ventilation in the brewery goes, I plan to definitely use brew hose to direct CO2 out our vent hoods whenever emptying tanks for cleaning. Or we have talked about having them install a vent pipe of sorts, that we can easy attach our hose to and send it out that way, kinda like Jim described. We are suppose to tell them how much the max CO2 that could be in the area at one time....so fermentation and venting full tanks. The fermentation CO2 shouldnt be a big deal with good air flow. I am just unsure how to measure or calculate how much CO2 is in a 14bbl fermentor (or 2 7bbl brite tanks) @ 15psi.

Hope all is good at DCBC Chris, We'll let you know how things develop here.

[Moonlight]

If you ruptured a CO2 line (or just had a moderately leak) it would also be a problem. Consider how much CO2 would need to be vented if a cylinder emptied abruptly. My building inspector seemed to think more in this way.

[MJMurphy]

We use a CO2 vent system as well to direct the gas out of the building when we vent our tanks. In addition, we also use a vacuum system to draw out the CO2 after vented the tank to atmospheric pressure.

We connect the hose from the vacuum to with a tri-clamp fitting to the racking arm of the vented tank. The vacuum is mounted to a pillar in the cellar and the exhaust is vented up copper pipes into the outdoors. We also have a 5-gal bucket acting as a trap between the tank and the vacuum itself in case any liquid or yeast on the sides of the cone gets sucked through.

It helps eliminate dumping the CO2 into the cellar, and it reduces the amount of neutralization by CO2 our caustic detergent goes through.

[Guest]

I know of on UK brewpub (4.5UKBbl) - all of the brewplant is in the cellar - direct-fire propane copper, HLT, 4xFVs, I think (but all cask - so not so much CO2.

As far as I know, they have no fans, vacuums, just on brewday, they open the cellar hatch & prop up a temporary chimney from the copper!