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David Hicks
09-30-2009, 01:55 PM
Alright, I'm coming from a homebrewing background and Im thinking about starting a brewery in about 4 years. Ive got a few questions that I think I know the answer to, but am not sure:


What type of standards does brewery equipment have to meet, is there a govermental body that inspects breweries?
All the brewhouses Ive seen have two vessels, a mash tun/kettle and a lauter tun. Does anyone make systems with Mash/lauter tuns and a seperate kettle? That is what I am used to with homebrewing.
If you have a separate lauter tun do you pump the mash, husks and all into it?


Im sure I will come up with some more, but thats all I can think of off the top of my head.

beermkr
09-30-2009, 02:05 PM
1. You have to get a Federal Brewer notice and any state requirements you require. These both generally require that you own a brew system and have already committed yourself to leases and other things.

2. The three pro systems I have worked on (Saaz, Pugsley, and DME) have been three vessel systems with HLT, Mash/Lauter, and kettle.

3. The system at the brewery I packaged at had a separate lauter tun and mash mixer/kettle. The mash was pumped into the lauter tun as a whole. You have to have all of it to set your bed...

R/

GlacierBrewing
10-01-2009, 06:40 AM
What type of standards does brewery equipment have to meet, is there a govermental body that inspects breweries?
Well, your friendly local health inspector is the one who will be inspecting your operation. You may also get a visit from the FDA. If your brewing equipment isn't up to par, your beers will show it. I consulted for a brewery that purchased some equipment made in China, this "new" equipment was already rusting on the inside. Not something you want to see with stainless steel!


All the brewhouses Ive seen have two vessels, a mash tun/kettle and a lauter tun. Does anyone make systems with Mash/lauter tuns and a seperate kettle? That is what I am used to with homebrewing.
Yup, that's the type of system I'm used to encountering in craft breweries these days. Most have a combi-vessel: hot liquor tank on the bottom, mash/lauter tun on top and a separate vessels as brew kettle. I.E. Bohemian MonoBlocks, Pub Brewing systems, some Specific Mechanical systems. Usually on smaller systems to save space (5-15bbl).


If you have a separate lauter tun do you pump the mash, husks and all into it?

Don't have a separate lauter tun and have never work with one. Anyone else want to chime in on this point?

Prost!
dave

Buckley
10-01-2009, 06:50 AM
I worked on a system that had all independent vessels kettle, mash, lauter and whirlpool. We pumped over from mash to lauter with a larger pump. We added rice hulls to the lauter while pumping as per the recipes.

beerking1
10-01-2009, 08:19 AM
Like said above, I have worked on a system that had a mash/kettle, and a separate lauter. The mash was pumped, grain and all, into the lauter where we set the bed, then ran the wort back into the kettle (have to rinse the mash tun while setting the bed before it "becomes" a kettle.

Never used hulls, except at home (knock wood).

David Hicks
10-01-2009, 03:07 PM
I just realized how unrealistic my brewery site is... there isn't any sewage system... I had not even thought about the amount of waste water I would be generating until just now. I'm sure that there is some sort of regulation that would prevent me from simply (well, not so simply really) making a drain field for the waste water...

I own a 200 acre farm where I'm hoping to open a brewery, but Im not going to pay the city to run sewer 3 miles to where I am...

Hmmm, anyone have any work arounds on that one? sounds like a deal killer to me...

David Hicks
10-01-2009, 03:39 PM
Since Im growing Hops and Barley, I suppose I could buy a very large water tank and store some of my waste water for irrigation, the only water that would be contaminated would be the water with cleaning agents in it... right? That would be the green thing to do...

GlacierBrewing
10-01-2009, 07:54 PM
I just realized how unrealistic my brewery site is... there isn't any sewage system... I had not even thought about the amount of waste water I would be generating until just now. I'm sure that there is some sort of regulation that would prevent me from simply (well, not so simply really) making a drain field for the waste water...

I own a 200 acre farm where I'm hoping to open a brewery, but Im not going to pay the city to run sewer 3 miles to where I am...

Hmmm, anyone have any work arounds on that one? sounds like a deal killer to me...

David, I would very STRONGLY advise against operating a commercial brewery without a municipal septic hookup. I know of breweries that tried it without the hookup and it cost thousands, tens of thousands, in extra sewage systems, gray water systems, EPA fines, etc. Bottom line; not worth it.
my two cents

prost!
Dave

GlacierBrewing
10-01-2009, 07:57 PM
Since Im growing Hops and Barley, I suppose I could buy a very large water tank and store some of my waste water for irrigation, the only water that would be contaminated would be the water with cleaning agents in it... right? That would be the green thing to do...

okay, second point,
how would you determine what waste water goes where? I know in my brewhouse I'm sanitizing a tank, cleaning out the mash tun, and washing kegs at the same time. All going down the same drain. Acids, basics, yeasties, beasties....
If you're growing food-grade crops, DO NOT use brewery effluent to irrigate your crops!

now my four cents.....

prost!
Dave

David Hicks
10-01-2009, 09:14 PM
Yeah, Im realizing how difficult that would make things. At this point, im only a few steps beyond toying with ideas.

Im going to look into disposal requirements on pbw, caustic, and acid sanitizer before I even think about anything else.

Graydon
10-02-2009, 09:35 AM
Call Anderson Valley they have a set of three ponds and if your brewery is small enough you can start that way. If you intend to get large at your facility you really need to be hooked to a medium or large sewer system.

Graydon

David Hicks
10-02-2009, 02:12 PM
Ive already got 4 ponds, Ill definitely look into their system.

Gregg
10-02-2009, 02:32 PM
If you're growing food-grade crops, DO NOT use brewery effluent to irrigate your crops!
I worked in an English brewery that used a single farm effluent pit to collect all brewery waste liquid : yeast, beer, caustic, acid rinse, sanitiser, rinse water, etc. It took a couple of years, but eventually we obtained permission from the Environment Agency to use the pit water for crop irrigation. Of course, it depends on the actual usage of particular chemicals, concentrations and frequency at any brewery, but it is certainly possible.

I would suggest you design simple holding and settling tanks to ensure you can wait to release only pH-neutral and low BOD liquid, and use only common-salt-based chemicals in the brewery - e.g. NaOH, HNO3, peracetic acid.

Alternatively, you can use your ponds to treat the effluent. You might like to talk to Purity (http://www.puritybrewing.com/pure-eco.cfm) about their pond and reed bed system in the Midlands (England).

David Hicks
10-02-2009, 09:54 PM
Thats kinda what I was thinking, between caustic and acid sanitizer, I should be getting pretty close to neutral PH... Im not ditching the project yet!

liammckenna
10-03-2009, 03:58 AM
Think about a constructed wetland system. The footprint is quite small.

I've read about a few wineries utilizing such a system quite effectively. Lifespan, given good design is apparently upwards of 25 years and the capital cost can be surprisingly small compared to alternatives for isolated (not on city sewer) sites.

A word of caution: some jurisdictions will require serious drainage studies, aquifer maps prior to approval and then maintenance of test wells surrounding the site. Usually this is in jurisdictions that have never encountered this before. Might be worth a conversation with your local environmental officials first.

Pax.

Liam

mic_mac
10-03-2009, 04:53 AM
There's a few UK brewers on farmland who have set up a reed bed system like the one Gregg mentions at Purity.

When we were first looking at a farm site for our micro, we looked into it, emailed a few other brewers & got a mixed response, but one chap who was very happy with his is Steve at Buntingford Brewery, Hertfordshire -

"the liquid waste (which is anything that isn't beer or spent hops / grain), is drained into our reed bed where all the horrible bits get naturally broken down by bacteria. Much to the benefit of the local wildlife, as the reed bed has become home to thriving colonies of numerous plant & animal species otherwise rare in this area."

from http://www.buntingford-brewery.co.uk/brewing.htm

grassrootsvt
10-04-2009, 11:37 PM
Indirect Discharge Permit.
Collect the wastewater into a holding tank.
Find the absorptive capacity of a particular location of one of your fields and obtain state permission to discharge the wastewater onto your land.
Pump the tank.
Land application.
It is allowed in Vermont, at least...

WitsEnd
10-05-2009, 12:24 PM
Another contact would be Dave (BeerBoy) from Dave's BrewFarm in WI. Not sure what he does, but by the sound of it, I doubt he's hooked up to a municipal system.

http://davesbrewfarm.blogspot.com/

South County
10-05-2009, 04:08 PM
David, I would very STRONGLY advise against operating a commercial brewery without a municipal septic hookup. I know of breweries that tried it without the hookup and it cost thousands, tens of thousands, in extra sewage systems, gray water systems, EPA fines, etc. Bottom line; not worth it.
my two cents

prost!
Dave

While I don't doubt that those situations are true, we are utilizing a very simple work around that will allow me to grow to about 4000 bbls. We live miles form the nearest sewer hookup, (rural farm land) and own industrial property. Our system is nothing more that a couple of large capacity holding tanks ganged together that get pumped as needed. The cost/gal is only a few cents more than what the municipal bill would be. I will agree that an full on-site treatment system may prove difficult and costly, putting in holding tanks is a cheap and quick solution, all state DEP approved in our case. I would much rather build on land I own and pay a few cents to have it pump edand not have a $3-7 per sqft/yr lease expense. I think all total we spent (all labor was performed by us) $5600 putting it in.

BeerBoy
10-05-2009, 04:27 PM
Since when is anything cheap or easy?!?
I'm on 35 rural acres. Miles from the Joy of Muni. But it can be done. I have all my brewery drains run to a 5000 gal. holding tank (7 bbl brew length, *maybe* 3-400 bbls annual). Current approved plan is to have effluent pumped and land spread. And the current tweak is I have some very interested students studying the possibility of creating a constructed wetland - coming down to a cost/bene big picture (in the end, same difference - different methodology). If you have the will (and $$ doesn't hurt), you'll find a way.