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Don Adsitt
11-16-2009, 01:59 PM
I'm moving to Liberia Africa to open a 10bbl brewery in the spring. I've been home all grain brewing for over a year, and been working (FREE) in a 10bbl brewery for the past 6 months for experience. However, a new head brew master has been hired and wont let me work there anymore, nor help me with questions (insurance so he says). Anyway, I have all the grain bills for a 10bbl recipes, but neglected to write down the hops and hop schedule for them. It is imperative that I have good known 10bbl recipes to open with. The Africans only like light ales - no browns reds nor stouts. Can anyone provide with with a few 10bbl recipes for summer and winter ales, pale and Pilsner, and IPA recipes. I'm desperate at this point.

Thanks,
Don Adsitt

MikeRoy
11-16-2009, 02:26 PM
Hey Don,
So....what you're saying is you stole recipes from this 10bbl brewpub and now they won't let you back in the door to finish copying down their recipes that you neglected to take with you in whole the first time?

How unreasonable of them,what's this industry coming to.... Feel free to send me an email and I'll be happy to send you all of my recipes from the last decade(no browns,reds or stouts though, wouldn't want an unhappy African market) including grist/hop bills, temps/times,yeast,conditioning procedures,logs I've made of aging beer on wood,with herbs/spices/flowers, infusion with wild yeast and bacteria.

Let me know if you need anymore information on general brewing practice/theory or what not. I mean if we can't simply help out an all grain home brewer of over a year start up an African brewery we'd all be just a bunch of savages. Whatever you do don't let anyone tell you that you need get experience by working in a paying brewing gig,work your way from the bottom to the top or figure this stuff out for yourself, that's just crazy, you're on the right path.

Good luck my brew brother,

liammckenna
11-16-2009, 02:51 PM
I'm desperate at this point.

Indeed. And, seemingly, with good reasons.

Either you or your clients may suffer from some delusional disorder(s). Consult your local psychiatrist for some direction.

Stay sane man.

Pax.

Liam

Don Adsitt
11-16-2009, 03:12 PM
Thanks mike, sent a personal message - hope you get it. I'm sure there is still much to learn, and so appreciate your help. We have much to overcome in Africa - no electricity - temps of 110 degrees, questionable water, requirement to treat wastewater etc. We adopted 3 girls from Liberia 4 years ago, and we would like to give back, but live comfortably there. I know Im in the right place finally with you guys!
Don

liammckenna
11-16-2009, 03:24 PM
Admin??

A little help here please.

Poor Mike is the victim of misunderstood sarcasm. Which, of course, can always be a danger with the puerile.

Please stop this before this gets embarrasingly ugly.

Not that it wouldn't be highly amusing.

Perhaps we are guilty of making it all look too easy.

Pax.

Liam

GlacierBrewing
11-16-2009, 03:49 PM
I'm moving to Liberia Africa to open a 10bbl brewery in the spring. I've been home all grain brewing for over a year, and been working (FREE) in a 10bbl brewery for the past 6 months for experience. However, a new head brew master has been hired and wont let me work there anymore, nor help me with questions (insurance so he says). Anyway, I have all the grain bills for a 10bbl recipes, but neglected to write down the hops and hop schedule for them. It is imperative that I have good known 10bbl recipes to open with. The Africans only like light ales - no browns reds nor stouts. Can anyone provide with with a few 10bbl recipes for summer and winter ales, pale and Pilsner, and IPA recipes. I'm desperate at this point.

Thanks,
Don Adsitt


Don,
You are going to have to experiment with YOUR system, local water profile, available ingredients, etc, to determine what hop profiles will work.

At a minimum, BUY yourself a copy of a brewing program like ProMash and see if you can figure out a hop schedule yourself.
If you came by these recipes by a less-than-honorable route, I would not advertise that fact. I cannot think of a pro brewer who likes having their recipes lifted for use in another brewery.

Prost!
Dave

SRB
11-16-2009, 04:42 PM
I second promash (http://www.promash.com/)
;)
Take your homebrew recipes and plug em' in for 10bbls....its a start.
Glacier is keen to mention considering what you can get in Liberia for raw ingredients and water profile.
Best of luck!

Don Adsitt
11-17-2009, 09:16 AM
Guys,
Please understand that what I had was an agreement to work in their brewery as free labor in exchange for the experience of running a brewery, and all information I would need to open a brewery in Liberia - including recipes. They held up there end - have given me grain suppliers, What and where to buy CIP chemicals, Kegs, hoses, all of it. This agreement was because they knew I was in no way competing with them - . If I was opening a brewery in the US then I could understand what your saying, but its not the case. I did not realize I did not have all the recipes I needed until later. When they replaced the head brew master - he alone decided to end our agreement without any notice. His excuse was "Insurance" and He is too busy to waste time on a non-employee. I was dismayed to say the least. If I had all the luxuries of a US brewery, I would gladly experiment as you suggest. I cannot do that in Liberia. There is no sewer system, and all water has to be treated, No Electricity except a local generator etc. That is why it is imperative to have known beginning working recipes to start with.
Don

WitsEnd
11-17-2009, 02:05 PM
I think what people are trying to get at here, is that there is no such thing as a proven recipie. The fine-tuning is all based on the unique brewery inputs (such as water, equipment, etc.)

Perhaps you should approach the forum with the grain portion of your recipie and what type of beer you're shooting for and see what people would recommend.

Or just get a copy of ProMash and dial up a homebrew recipie. Recipie forumulation is a vital skill for someone taking on a project such as yours.

Jephro
11-17-2009, 02:28 PM
I will fourth the ProMash suggestions. You can input the viatals for all of your ingredients, calculate efficency for your brewhouse, water chemistry etc. It's going to be a trial-by-fire no matter how you go into it, sounds as there are just too many unknowns.

Make a simple good, clean, beer (like a blonde) to start with. Take good notes and then build on your knowledge and start making more complex beers as you see fit. That's we all have done for many years building our careers as professional brewers and i think that is why some people are offended that you are asking them to share their life's work as if it will be a simple plug-and-play operation. I have 8 years as a pro brewer, and i still learn every day- If i did not, i would look for something else.

Good Luck

Graydon
11-17-2009, 03:25 PM
Don,

I hope such a thing exist, and I don't know your circumstances, but I was once asked to design a beer for the brewmaster that was going to replace me. My response was why should a new guy brew my beer. Shouldn't he have the oppertunity to make his own beer(with the exception of established brands). There is a certain pride in designing and brewing your own beer. If you are not ready for this step than you should consider paying a good consultant for what you need. Note brewers are not driving around in fancy sports cars and we work hard developing the tools we use. Please show us the a little respect. If you do you will find that brewers are extremely gracious.


Graydon

jarviw
11-17-2009, 05:32 PM
Don,

Recipe formulation is an art, but at the same time, recipe is cheap. Any of us here can easily give you a recipe that will taste fine, if not awesome. Or, you can find tons of beer recipe books on Amazon -- there are lots of great tasting recipes out there.

But, carrying out the brewing and making consistently good beer is another discipline all together. Most great beers taste great not because of the small tweaks in recipes, but because of the care and control we put in to ensure the quality. If you are having issues with basic recipe formulation, most of us here assume that you don't have enough understanding in brewing... which we don't mind helping! But this is a real issue if you are going to take up a brewery project in Africa all on your own.

None of us want to see a failed business and crashed brewery dream, but be realistic with yourself. If you can, I recommend you to go through formal brewing training -- Siebel, UC-Davis, or ABG. Otherwise, get a consultant!

Cheers!

Don Adsitt
11-17-2009, 05:59 PM
I'm suprised that with all the other post and help offered, no one except MikeRoy will help me with such a simple request. You all act like your guarding a treasure - . There are those that really like helping others, and I'm that way myself. I understand that tweaking due to water quality etc. and I'm surely not going to compete with you - so why are you proving to be such jerks about lending a hand and helping out? This Probrewers board I thought was to help others and promote the industry, but I'm not seeing any help here.

Disappointing.

SRB
11-17-2009, 06:40 PM
Upon reviewing my response I think I was actually quite friendly.

I dont have recipes for 10bbls...I brew on 7bbls direct fire and thats all I have done since opening my brewery with my partner 10 months ago. We brew with whole leaf hops and put them in big "tea bags" and squish them every so often. Pro Mash doesnt help much on that front. ;) In fact Ive yet to find a brewers calculation that can give me what I feel would be an accurate estimate of IBU's in recipe using this technique. (ie utilization) Thank goodness "the people" liked the beer...and they like it even MORE 10 months later...recipe's tweaked here and there...If you plan on using pellets your one step ahead of where we were. Promash can hook you up with pellet calculations. And whole leaf hop calculations when not packed in "tea bags"
You can download Promash right where you are...have you done that yet? If so what have you come up with? A couple pounds of some high alpha acid hop additions right at the start and a few pounds of good hop aroma varieties say ten minutes from flame out?

Don't underestimate FRESH BEER. Ive never been to Africa...but Id wager heavy there not all that different of beer drinkers from us Pacific North Westerners. If they like "beer" they will like and probably love fresh
"craft beer". Keep it clean, focus on the details and scour the archives of this site. Chances are someone already posted a good "Golden" recipe you can tweak. The search engine on this site is an educational portal that just may take you to the next level...it has with me!! :D
"RELAX have a Craft Brew!"
:)

millerag
11-17-2009, 06:41 PM
Don,
A "Simple question"......there is nothing simple about the requests you have made. Do you truly understand what you are asking? Brewing beer is not as simple as making bread. There are many variables that need to be considered.

I will say this many brewers on this site will help with reasonable requests. Having said that, your initial post did not sound like you know what you are doing and many of the guys/ladies on this site are not going to waste their time on something that sounds doomed to start.

GlacierBrewing
11-17-2009, 07:37 PM
I'm suprised that with all the other post and help offered, no one except MikeRoy will help me with such a simple request. You all act like your guarding a treasure - . There are those that really like helping others, and I'm that way myself. I understand that tweaking due to water quality etc. and I'm surely not going to compete with you - so why are you proving to be such jerks about lending a hand and helping out? This Probrewers board I thought was to help others and promote the industry, but I'm not seeing any help here.

Disappointing.

Hi Don,
Please understand your initial request for 10bbl hop help was very vague. Here's the answer: 1st hop drop at 10 minutes in the boil, 450g cascade, 2nd hop 35 minutes in the boil, 355g EKG, last hop 5 minutes in the boil 400g chinook. There, use that.......
what? too vague? yup! too vague.
The treasures we are guarding are the techniques we have learned by doing that work for our individual markets. I can provide you with a 10bbl hop recipe that sells like mad in Polson, Montana but it probably won't do much in Liberia. You said you don't have the "luxury" to experiment on your system. You are in trouble then. Big trouble. I'm over six years into a brewing operation, fourteen-plus years into professional brewing and I'm STILL experimenting! Excuse my tone, but you are coming across as somewhat petulant. We (members of ProBrewer) do not know the content of the recipes you have (however they were obtained). To "provide" you with a hop bill, the WHOLE recipe should be taken into account. Crafting a hop bill is not "tweaking". Adjusting amounts, times, varieties; that's tweaking.

The "help" you were expecting (demanding?) that's not here could be due to the fact that you are not providing complete details of your recipes and situation. You are moving to Africa to open a brewery without a municipal septic, no "on demand" potable water, no "on demand" electricity source. You lack the ability to formulate a partial recipe based on what YOU think YOUR market will want. You need to be able to walk into this brewery with the ability to do the basics: formulate recipes, brew said recipes, provide marketing direction, troubleshoot production, juggle inventories/supply demands, schedule production/cleaning, perform maintenance/repairs, etc and by the way, ETC!!! This is no small undertaking, even for a seasoned brewer. Please take all the feedback you've received as creative critique. I don't feel any are meant to be criticism. If you would like to PM me, I would be happy to help you however I may. Luck to ya'.

Prost!
Dave

jarviw
11-17-2009, 08:37 PM
We don't just hand you a recipe because we know it is meaningless to do so... You will not be able to brew our recipes simply because we have different systems and different processes. On the other hand, if you understand recipe formulation and your system, you don't even need our recipe to replicate our beer. We are trying to help you learn the big picture, not just to hand you stuff that most likely won't work for you.

To be perfectly fair and honest, the numbers Dave pull out may or may not work for what you need -- depending on your grain bill, your mashing schedule, and the yeast you use (as well as your system), and what you are going after. And don't forget that you still need to source the raw materials... you may or may not get the same hops with same alpha%.

I recommend Brewers' Handbook by Ted Goldammer (http://www.amazon.com/Brewers-Handbook-Ted-Goldammer/dp/0967521203). It is good reading without getting way too technical engineering... Also, Ray Daniels' Designing Great Beers is an excellent resource. And again, get ProMash!

Cheers!

Don Adsitt
11-17-2009, 09:13 PM
I appreciate what your saying......but In the brewery, of a brown, pale, IPA and Kosch that I brewed there, the Mash is single step, all for 75 minutes, strike at 175 degrees, and mash out at 148-158 depending. Boiling was 90 minutes all the time, and the hop scheduels were all nearly the same, 1st at 75 min, second and/3rd at 75, and finish at 5. The IPA was at beginning of boil, again at 60 min and finish at 10.

Here is one of what I'm talking about, for a Kolsch - a superb beer.
2 row 450 #, wheat 150#, Mash at 150. rest 20, recirc 20, sparge 20 min. Mt hood 860 grams/75, magnum 290/75, crystal 690/5. Yeast WLP 029. Added yeast nutrient and whirlfloc to the boil, OG 065.

This is what I mean. Other than the water, you could take it anywhere and it would be nearly the same - assuming ferment temps and CV.

The grain bills I have - but missing the hop amounts are:
Harvest Pale- 500# of 2row, 30# of carapils, 37# crystal 40L, 13# crystal 80L.

Summer Lager- 350# 2row, 100# of Vienna, 38# munich, 7# crystal 15lo 5# crystal 80l.

IPA 625#2row, 50# crystal10L, 50#carapils

Hafeweizen - 250# 2 row, 200# wheat

Perhaps, you could suggest hops and a hop schedule for these. That I would appreciate.

Thank you,
D.

J.M.Martin
11-18-2009, 05:32 AM
Don:

So what are you going to do when it comes to marketing and a reporter asks you how you created your “wonderful” blonde ale? If you say anything less then “The grain bill came from the previous Brewmaster and for the hops I went on an internet forum and asked a bunch of strangers to calculate the amount and pick the variety of hops for me” you will be a liar. Even small children are taught in school that using someone else’s answers/work and calling it your own is steeling/ playgerisium.

For the sake of the rest of us please do not put Brewmaster or brewer on your business card; because you are neither yet. Actually you don’t sound like a brewer or a homebrewer but an owner who is trying to cut corners and do it him self instead of paying a real brewer! Every homebrewer I know demands to do their own recipe and is proud of it and no brewer would ever dismiss reds and browns they would find a version of them that the area would drink and convert the area to more flavorful beers.





jamie

beerking1
11-18-2009, 07:37 AM
Don,

I truly wish you luck here, but I think you are in WAY over your head.

I have to agree with Jamie when he says: "Actually you donít sound like a brewer or a homebrewer but an owner who is trying to cut corners and do it him self instead of paying a real brewer!"

Your statement about the kolsch "Other than the water, you could take it anywhere and it would be nearly the same - assuming ferment temps and CV." seems to prove that, IMHO. If I took one of my recipes from my 3 BBL system, to someone else's 3 BBL system, even using the same water and ferment profile, it still would not "be nearly the same." Every system is different, and it would need tweaking. You have got to get to know YOUR system, to be able to work out any recipes yourself. When I was homebrewing all-grain, a friend once suggested I brew the same recipe on my system 6-8 times in a row to get to know the ins and outs of my own system before I started tweaking here and there to improve things. That was great advice.

You have a hop profile for the Kolsch. Follow the suggestions here and get a (legal) copy of ProMash. Enter that recipe. Then follow another suggestion here and read Ray Daniels "Designing Great Beer." Pay particular attention to the BU/GU ratio part, and take a look at the section on Kolsch. Then reference the sections for the other styles you want to produce. If you cannot figure out YOUR OWN hop profile through this process, you have picked the wrong profession, and your Africa project is doomed.

Meant in all sincerity, and I hope it works for you!

-Lyle

Don Adsitt
11-18-2009, 08:30 AM
I spoke with the old headbrewer this morning, who gladly gave me the missing hop scheduels - no thanks to any of you. I read him your post. Other than the books you mentioned - of which I already have - I agree with him - your full of it. Uderstanding the BU ratio I already know - its what FLAVOR of hops go with what style that I didnt have. That is not in any book. Dont bother to reply - I'm off this board.

SRB
11-18-2009, 08:50 AM
What an odd thread. :confused:

You were right Liam.

freakbrothers
11-18-2009, 09:14 AM
I spoke with the old headbrewer this morning, who gladly gave me the missing hop scheduels - no thanks to any of you. I read him your post. Other than the books you mentioned - of which I already have - I agree with him - your full of it. Uderstanding the BU ratio I already know - its what FLAVOR of hops go with what style that I didnt have. That is not in any book. Dont bother to reply - I'm off this board.
None if this information is hard to find or figure out with even a little effort. I agree this was a VERY strange thread indeed.

WitsEnd
11-18-2009, 09:58 AM
Strange, but entertaining...

I could see how someone new to homebrewing wouldn't know their Cascade from their Saaz, so perhaps this is what he was going for.

Had he asked more specific questions such as: "What variety of hops would you recommend for a Kolsch" (or brown, or whatever), he probably would have gotten farther.

beerking1
11-18-2009, 10:43 AM
Strange indeed. He says "what FLAVOR of hops go with what style that I didn't have. That is not in any book."
Huh? Pretty basic stuff, plus, it very much is in the Ray Daniels book, complete with charts showing what was most common in NHC entries for each style.

MikeRoy
11-18-2009, 11:03 AM
Wow!!!

Hey everyone I'm sorry my sarcastic response would help fuel such an amusing thread.....wait I take it back I'm not sorry, its been highly entertaining.

In all sincerity though wouldn't Don's venture into his new brewery make an excellent reality tv show for Food Network/Travel Channel....I mean starting a craft brewery in Africa with no water,sewage or electricity source....oh and a brewmaster eh...brewer...eh guy who stirs the pot as a colorful character...it could be called-------> BREWERY IMPOSSIBLE

Actually now that I think of it Food Network nor Travel Channel would be interested, now Sci-Fi Channel and you've got a winner!



Peace & love to all my brew brothers & sisters out there,

GlacierBrewing
11-18-2009, 12:11 PM
I spoke with the old headbrewer this morning, who gladly gave me the missing hop scheduels - no thanks to any of you.

Admin, please keep this thread in the archives so it may be referenced in the future under "HOW NOT TO GET HELP ON PROBREWER".
I can't help but wonder how such an entitled attitude will play-out in Liberia. It's already been said but.......WOW!

"as the grains in the grain mill, so are the days of our lives!"

prost!
dave

Jephro
11-18-2009, 12:47 PM
Wow!!!

Hey everyone I'm sorry my sarcastic response would help fuel such an amusing thread

I felt bad for Don at first for being oblivious to you sarcasm, then he just got rude and ungrateful to the people that actually were trying to help him.

BTW - who's turn is it to guard the treasure?;)

GlacierBrewing
11-18-2009, 01:19 PM
BTW - who's turn is it to guard the treasure?;)


ummmm.....I thought YOU were watching the treasure!

burlybeer
11-18-2009, 02:00 PM
I never realized how easy brewing is until I read this thread! Here I have been laboring with malt analysis, hop schedules and process gobboldygook like a sucker when all I really needed was "known beginning, working recipes" to make "a superb beer".

I feel like a fool for having wasted all these years :)

infinitybrewer
11-18-2009, 06:49 PM
I haven't laughed this hard in a long, long, time ...
seriously,

thank-you all,

Thom

BrewinLou
11-19-2009, 09:50 AM
" I agree with him - your full of it." OREALLY!

You come here with hat in hand offing neither tits nor tasty sammich.
So sayeth the Godfather.

beertje46
11-19-2009, 10:57 AM
"
You come here with hat in hand offing neither tits nor tasty sammich.
So sayeth the Godfather.

I'm not sure I'd want to see any tits from this group, I will take that sammich though.

beermkr
11-19-2009, 12:41 PM
See now we have pissed him off and we will never see that 64 million dollars US that is sitting in the Liberian bank account of his late finance minister father :)

R/

Vendetta
11-19-2009, 07:13 PM
Recipes in this world are abundant, and hop schedules are not a secret for those who invest any effort at all. A recipe is just that, and the devil is in the details, and the technique. Gordon Ramsay has many books that detail his recipes, but you might find it rather difficult to clone one of his restaurants if you lack the skills of execution, and an understanding of your particular equipment. Compound that with the drinking sensibilities of LIBERIA, and you likely have a recipe for disaster. Most of the third world countries I have been to (about a dozen so far) have not developed a palate for what most of us would consider "craft beer," and if you cater to North American sensibilities, you will likely end up drinking the beer all by yourself. You will probably have to keep it light in color, and low in bitterness (which, by the way, you, at this level should regard generically and mathematically). Basically, shoot for 2-3 macro style products, and don't be surprised if you fall short of that mark for reasons of technical inability. Sarcasm is not nearly so hard to understand as brewing.

Scott M
11-19-2009, 08:45 PM
Almost missed this one!! Where did this guy work, cause I don't ever want to have a beer there; and thank God the brewery he will be operating is in Africa!

Does anyone think he bought a copy, or read John Palmer's "How to Brew", "Brewing Classic Styles" by John Palmer and Jamil Zainasheff or "Designing Great Beers" by Ray Daniels? I don't think he knows what ProMash is!!

This is great comedy! I'm, well.....432443244324

mic_mac
11-20-2009, 12:35 PM
http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=20973

Cheers Banjo!
:D
MikeMcG

burcher
11-20-2009, 01:29 PM
well, his name is banjo. paddle faster!

Scott M
11-20-2009, 11:45 PM
http://www.realbeer.com/discussions/showthread.php?t=20973

Cheers Banjo!
:D
MikeMcG

So nice to get referrals from our parent forum!!


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Ted Briggs
11-21-2009, 02:12 PM
This guy remindes me of a totoly clueless owner whos interview for a Ass. Brewer job years ago consisted of one question: "Do you know how to work the machine?" Now having seen Ghostbusters i know when to say im a god, so i just said "yes I do". Later me and my new Head Brewer were laughing stiches-
Thanks all for the great laugh- especialy the Liberian Prince comment :eek:
PS: lets find this Banjo dude and make him drink a pint of bar towel sqeezens.

liammckenna
11-21-2009, 10:38 PM
mmm bar towel squeeguns.

My first question is ' Does Banjo have five strings or, a mere four?'

I guess I'll be the first to mention that there is obviously a vibrant market for good brewers in Liberia.

God bless Liberia. Push that envelope.

Just make sure to make than an SASE.

Pax.

Liam

lhall
11-22-2009, 01:00 PM
Umm, Banjo was just the person who referred the original poster, Don, to probrewer after he posted his question on realbeer.com.

mic_mac
11-22-2009, 01:26 PM
. . . & I was thanking Banjo for bringing this much fun into our lives :D
cheers
MikeMcG

Colin D'Orge
01-16-2010, 04:23 PM
Hello. I am a three month experienced extract homebrewer and I've saved up money by washing cats for rich housewives and detailing vespas, now I'm opening a belgian style brewpub in the heart of the amazon jungle. How much yeast do I need? Also my main consumer base will be the only surviving tribe of true cannibal-head hunters, what kind of brewery insurance should I get? Any ideas how to keep pirannahs out of a hot liquor tank? Also, you all suck and are terrible people if my business fails!

Scott M
01-16-2010, 04:35 PM
Now that's humor, right there!!

Thanks!

tariq khan
01-16-2010, 10:23 PM
I really enjoyed this thread..........unbelievable really!

Cheers !

Tariq (Big Ridge Brewery, Surrey ,B.C.)

beauxman
01-17-2010, 12:05 AM
Talk about clueless...

-Beaux