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  • GPM and PSI for pump size

    I have been doing some research on pumps and sprayball's in this forum and learned a lot. I'm trying to get a bigger pump to CIP my unitanks and brite tanks. The spray balls only have holes in the top and are stationary. The caustic cascades down the sides. Currently I'm not happy with the way my tanks are coming clean. So ... What are the GPM and PSI needed to clean 10 bbl tanks with that type of sprayball.

    Thanks
    Tim

  • #2
    Pretty good CIP recomendations:

    * Required Delivery - Gpm: The required pumping capacity will be determined by the size of the transfer lines and tanks to be cleaned. If a single CIP recirculating unit is applied to clean lines and tanks, the tank CIP requirement for the largest tanks will generally establish the maximum delivery rate. Tanks less than five feet in diameter require a supply of 40 Gpm; tanks of eight to twelve feet diameter will require 80 to 100 Gpm. Detailed criteria for spray flow rates are provide in a subsequent section.

    * Delivery Pressure - Psig: The CIP supply pump discharge head must exceed the headloss through the longest piping circuit, and supply the sprays in the largest and most distant tank at the required pressure. However, since most commonly applied sprays operate at relatively low pressures of 25-30 Pig, and since the approximate head loss through sanitary tubing is in the magnitude of 5 feet per 100 feet of length, delivery pressures are normally in the magnitude of 50 to 80 Psig, well within the capability of a centrifugal pump of sanitary design.

    * Required Sequence of Treatment: Nearly all CIP cleaning is accomplished with water-based solutions by a program consisting of (a) a pre-flush with the lowest grade water available, or recovered solution. (b) an alkaline solution wash at a variety of time and temperature combinations, (c) a post-rinse with water, (d) a recirculated acid rinse, generally at ambient temperature, to neutralize final traces of the alkaline wash, and subsequent pure water rinses as required to achieve the desired removal of all traces of chemical from the equipment surface.

    * Number of Tanks Required: All of the above sequences can be accomplished from a single tank, of as little as 60 gallons capacity, if the water supplies are adequate to meet the above defined delivery requirement for prolonged periods of time. However, if a DI water, WFI water, RO water, or other type of purified water supply is substantially lower than the CIP pump delivery rate, then the CIP unit must contain a solution recirculation tank and, in addition, one or more tanks for the required forms of high quality water, these tanks being sized to fill at low rates and empty at high rates for the required duration to complete all flushes and rinses.

    * Delivery Temperature: Flushing (pre-rinsing) of most organic fat, carbohydrate or proteinaceous nature soil is generally accomplished with water at ambient temperature, or below 115( F. to avoid "cooking" or setting the soil on the equipment surface. Heating the solution to final cleaning temperature can be easily accomplished during recirculation for chemical feed purposes via a shell and tube heat exchanger. Most CIP cleaning will be accomplished at temperatures between 135( and 175( F., though hot water sanitizing may require the delivery of water at 190(-195( F. Shell and tube heat exchangers and steam lines must be insulated for safety reasons. It is desirable to avoid insulation of CIP tanks, solution lines, pumps and valves, and assure employee safety by controlling personnel access to the facilities during CIP and design of the facilities.


    Also for heavy loads you could add hypochlorite or hydrogen peroxide (1000-2000 ppm) to a 3% caustic. Be careful with hypochlorite not to exceed 150 ppm total residual Cl2, and a thorough acid rinse after.

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by gallon
      I have been doing some research on pumps and sprayball's in this forum and learned a lot. I'm trying to get a bigger pump to CIP my unitanks and brite tanks. The spray balls only have holes in the top and are stationary. The caustic cascades down the sides. Currently I'm not happy with the way my tanks are coming clean. So ... What are the GPM and PSI needed to clean 10 bbl tanks with that type of sprayball.

      Thanks
      Tim
      Top half spray balls are the norm for small breweries. Cleaning is accomplished by the cascade or sheeting action, not brute force impinging. If your tanks are not coming clean you should look at the cleaning products you are currently using. What are you using and at what rates?

      Never use chlorine based products on stainless steel. Period.
      Cheers & I'm out!
      David R. Pierce
      NABC & Bank Street Brewhouse
      POB 343
      New Albany, IN 47151

      Comment


      • #4
        Thank you so much for the response. I am using PBW for an alkaline cleaner at 150 degrees. I mix 1 oz per gallon circulate for 30 min and inspect the tank. the difficult areas to clean are directly above the sparyball and the pipe to the ball. If I use a long handled brush to scrub and then recirculate the PBW it will come clean.

        The pump I'm using is only 1/2 hose, 1725 RPMs. I was looking for something bigger and was asked what GPM and PSI I needed in order to size the pump.

        PS what size pump is recommended for whilpooling?

        Thanks
        Tim

        Comment


        • #5
          First of all, 1/2" hose is woefully small. You should not have any restrictions in your cleaning lines. If your sprayball is 1 1/2", then so should all of your pipes/hoses. Much is dependent on your sprayball. It will only pass so much liquid and is optimized for a certain flow rate. The pump you choose must be matched to the sprayball--assuming that your sprayball is already sized for the tank correctly. For 10 bbl tanks, a 1HP motor is sufficient but 1 1/2 might be better. Go for something that will produce about 15psi at about 25 gpm. You can get away with a bit less if your CIP line is 1". Looking at pump curves for a typical 10 bbl brewery pump, Top-Flo C-100 fitted with a 1HP 3500rpm motor and a 3.25" impeller, you will get 15psi at 25 gpm. As beertje46 said, you want as much solution being applied as possible, but it's not a force issue. You need enough to spray the liquid as opposed to lots of small, weak streams hitting the exact same spots in your tanks. I second looking at your solutions. What is your cleaning water chemistry?
          Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by gitchegumee
            First of all, 1/2" hose is woefully small.
            I believe he meant half-horse, but good advise. Half hp is woefully small. I run a 1.5 hp pump at 1700 +- rpm (28 hz) on thirty bbl. Uni's through 1.5" brewer hose.

            The half-horse should be great for whirlpool.
            Cheers & I'm out!
            David R. Pierce
            NABC & Bank Street Brewhouse
            POB 343
            New Albany, IN 47151

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by beertje46

              Never use chlorine based products on stainless steel. Period.
              Normally I would say the same, I was attaching info from a CIP seminar directed by Dave Thomas of Ecolabs, he gave very specific instructions on the subject and I should note Calcium Hypochlorite was the weapon of choice. To each his own.

              Comment


              • #8
                the four t's

                Temperature, Time, Titration, and Turbidity. These 4 factors will determine the effectiveness of your cleaning cycle. 150 is not hot enough. 30 min. is not long enough. PBW is not strong enough. Talk to your chemical supplier, and if you don't have one get one.
                It is important to use industrial grade cleaners once you stop home brewing. Sodium Hydroxide "caustic" cleaner is crucial. Nitric Phosphoric acid is critical for beer stone removal. Titration kits are an absolute necessity! Titrate your chemical more then once during the cleaning process as caustic becomes neutralized quickly.
                Make friends with your chemical supplier, more then likely they will want to help you, especially if they drink your beer.

                Comment


                • #9
                  We've been through the loop of hypo before, I am sure. Actually the chemical suppliers are always wary of hypo in caustic because the pH has to be above 12, in other words strong caustic. When it drops below this, especially if acid, then the chlorine released will chew holes in the stainless very rapidly. So if you do use hypo, then it needs to be thoroughly rinsed with fresh water. I would never use acid afterwards as routine - just in case of inadequate rinsing

                  Re beer stone removal, providing the caustic is formulated to suit the local water, and has plenty of chelating agents to mop up any hardness, then you won't develop beer stone, If you have got it, then hot strong formualted caustic, with additional EDTA or the equivalent is better than acid.

                  The real beauty of acid though is it is not degraded by CO2, although in spite of what the suppliers might state, I still think a caustic prewash is needed - in which case why add capital and revenue cost for both acid and casutic facilities, and simply stick to caustic.

                  Luke warm or cold caustic will clean pretty well, but may need more time, or higher pressure to compensate for lack of temperature. But you may require a separate sterilant cycle to compensate for low biocidal action of cold caustic

                  Oh, and the comment about 1/2 inch hose is correct - if your sprayball is 1 inch or 1.5 inch - 1/2 inch hose is , as commented, inadequate. I can't comment on pump power as so much is dependant on pipework and vessel design
                  dick

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Great info guys thanks. I did mean 1/2 horse, the hoses I use are 1 inch. The spray ball's in the tanks spray up to the dome and run down the sides. There is a great old thread on this. It seems most people agreed that this is a common spray ball found in many 10 bbl tanks.

                    Is the 15 psi at 25 gpm good for that kind of spray ball? Or should I look into getting a 360 degree ball?

                    Also, is there any benefit in over-sizing a pump and throttling it back in case I need it?

                    I am going to also try a stronger Caustic product and I am going to try antifoam to cut down on the mess.
                    If anyone has some info on the best way to add the anti foam to the fermenter in the most sanitary way possible I would love to hear it.

                    Thanks again,
                    Tim
                    Last edited by gallon; 06-28-2010, 02:56 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Tim, I'm not sure what you have when you ask for specific recommendations for "...that kind of spray ball." Is it a cylindrical spinning unit, or a spherical stationary unit? How many and how big are the holes? Without knowing, nobody can give you a for sure answer. The 15psi and 25 gpm are good ballpark numbers for many small stationary spherical sprayballs with a 180 degree upward distribution. Don't go 360 degrees. Your problems are at the top of the tank, right? Oversizing and throttling is just guessing and adjusting. I'd recommend against it. Get it right the first time. If you really want to dial in your sprayball, select a pump with good characteristics (like the cheaper Top-Flo C-100), and have the impeller trimmed when you get real-world performance feedback. Overpressure and throttling will foam some solutions more than you'd like. Regarding antifoams, they are usually added to the kettle, but can also be added to the fermenter with the yeast. See other extensive threads on antifoams. Good luck!
                      Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        i agree with dick

                        If you use the appropriate amount of Sodium Hydroxide at the appropriate temp, time, titration, and turbidity you will not have a beer stone problem.
                        I was simply making this acid cleaning recommendation because it sounded to me like there was an overall problem with the cleaning cycle.
                        Ideally, you would never have to use an acid cleaner. It can come in handy though if you are using any type of wild yeast for inoculation. Then acid passivization can be critical.
                        You can add anti-foam directly to your caustic solution before beginning your cleaning cycle.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          In strong defence of acids....

                          Safety man, don't understand your reluctance to use acid. It's much safer than sodium hydroxide. Especially if you're buying NaOH at high concentrations (like 50%). Skin contact with NaOH is much more harmful than with most acids. NaOH will saponify subcutaneous fat and actually eat a hole through your skin. Acids are less aggressive to skin.
                          And Birko has research to show that caustic cleaners actually help bind oxylates to fermenters. This may not be the case with all caustic formulations and cleaning water chemistries, but it is with some.
                          How do you clean inorganic scale from fermenters after a caustic wash if not with an acid wash? And how do you remove the tenacious grip NaOH has on surfaces if not with an acid rinse?
                          I use only acid cleaners in my BBTs. This way the BBT can stay pressurized and save the planet by reusing CO2. Cleaning kegs, for me, is also better done with acid cleaners. I get a cleaner keg quicker and better rinsed by using only an acid cleaner. How would you clean inorganic scale from a HLT if not with an acid cleaner? Certainly not with NaOH.
                          I've been moving toward more acid cleaners and less caustic/alkaline cleaners in my brewery. I think I get a cleaner tank faster, and better rinsed, with less water and loss of CO2.
                          Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Thank you Philip, with your info I have a much better understanding of how pumps work and are sized. My supplier helped me price a pump similar to the one you suggested which might give me better coverage.

                            What type of acid are you using to clean with?

                            Tim

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Your welcome, Gallon. I love sizing pumps. Those curves only look intimidating. Ecolab, Loeffler, Birko, 5-Star, Diversey all make good acid cleaners. Today I have 5-Star Acid #5 and Birko's Ultra-Nitr in the brewery. 1-2 oz/gallon of solution.
                              Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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