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RobZamites
04-03-2005, 02:16 PM
Greetings,
I'm planning on making a kristall weizen soon, and although I know the ideal yeast for this would be White Labs WLP300, the brewery owners wish to see if I can save some cash by using one of the Fermentis dry yeasts. The Safale K-97 looks promising, but I can't find anywhere if this strain will produce the clove-banana profiles I'd desire. Anyone have experience with this yeast?
Selling my bosses on the need for $500 worth of liquid yeast is tough indeed, especially given that the performance of the Safale-04 I used on my IPA was spectacular, given the huge savings.....

Thanks,

Rob

Ted Briggs
04-04-2005, 06:50 AM
(assuming 10bbl batch) Why not split off 1/2bbl from another batch and propagate 1L of the right yeast? This should accomplish both goals.

BigWilley
04-04-2005, 07:47 AM
If you are only doing one batch of Weizen you could try propping up from a White Labs Homebrew vial. I did a Belgian Ale at about 16P where i took one Homebrew vial pitched it into 2 litres of wort, the next day into 5 gallons, the next day into 1Bbl then into 10 Bbl of the Belgian and it took off like a shot and was done in three days. You do have to plan your brews around the prop schedule though.

RobZamites
04-04-2005, 08:15 AM
Thanks for the tips!

Rob

Greenbrewmonkey
04-04-2005, 08:46 AM
Hello Rob,

I have used K-97 on a number of occasions, please give me a call over here at Jolly Pumpkin, and we can discuss if it would be right for your beer. On a related note are you heading to the MBAA meeting Thursday? I'd love to try that IPA if possible.

My other thought is that lots of kind folks throughout the state of Michigan will be using a hefe strain of one type or another in the upcoming days / weeks / all summer, really. Have you tried calling some of the local folks. Say, Grand Rapids BC? Come to think of it, make some calls, maybe someone can bring some to the meeting for you to pick up?

Aloha,
Ron

big_al
10-28-2006, 02:43 AM
I've been using the Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan liquid yeast in my 7bbl batches for the last 4 months and I'm really happy with it so far. I grew up the culture from a single smack pack to a 10 litre batch using light malt extract and have done 6 succesful brews and just started using a new culture for my latest batch.
Only problem I had was when I pitched a smaller than normal batch of yeast (2 litres rather than 10 litres) into a double batch and the lag time was noticeably longer. I think I pushed my luck there and think it was time to move on to a new culture. The esters are beautifully bananary (is that a word?) and everyone refers to it as "banana beer".

Allan
Tanglehead Brewing Company

hoprocketeer
10-28-2006, 09:47 AM
I've been using the Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan liquid yeast in my 7bbl batches for the last 4 months and I'm really happy with it so far. I grew up the culture from a single smack pack to a 10 litre batch using light malt extract and have done 6 succesful brews and just started using a new culture for my latest batch.
Only problem I had was when I pitched a smaller than normal batch of yeast (2 litres rather than 10 litres) into a double batch and the lag time was noticeably longer. I think I pushed my luck there and think it was time to move on to a new culture. The esters are beautifully bananary (is that a word?) and everyone refers to it as "banana beer".

Allan
Tanglehead Brewing Company

There was a talk given a few years ago at the Craft Brewers Conference from a yeast company, either White Labs or Wyeast. They had studied the production of esters in weizen strains, particularly iso-amyl acetate. They concluded exactly as you have, that underpitching leads to increased levels of banana character that you noted. Some like it, some don't. I don't mind it, but prefer my brews to be somewhere in the middle.

hoprocketeer

Beer Guy
10-29-2006, 01:15 AM
I've been using the Wyeast 3068 Weihenstephan liquid yeast in my 7bbl batches for the last 4 months and I'm really happy with it so far. I grew up the culture from a single smack pack to a 10 litre batch using light malt extract and have done 6 succesful brews and just started using a new culture for my latest batch.
Only problem I had was when I pitched a smaller than normal batch of yeast (2 litres rather than 10 litres) into a double batch and the lag time was noticeably longer. I think I pushed my luck there and think it was time to move on to a new culture. The esters are beautifully bananary (is that a word?) and everyone refers to it as "banana beer".

Allan
Tanglehead Brewing Company

Al why dont you build a yeast prop out of a 50litre keg you may find one sitting out the back of the Premier (don't tell Aden I said that). Give us a call and I can run through the basics, you are a smart cookie and should figure it out just weld in the fittings that you use for gas and rig it so it can dose inline during transfer.

beauxman
10-30-2006, 10:55 PM
grow it up!

big_al
10-31-2006, 03:44 AM
spoken like a true Monk Richo!

big_al
10-31-2006, 03:53 AM
Rich,

I had a nice old 18 gallon keg lined up for just that job, (either that or a CIP tank), but someone nabbed it!

Allan

Beer Guy
11-01-2006, 02:11 AM
That would have been easier. I had a couple of modified kegs at the Scaly Wanker where the top was cut out and a 300mm screw on cap welded in to . The base was cut off and a 60* cone welded on the bottom. Pretty much set up like a 50ltr fermenter without cooling (will do that next time).

They were really awesome for specialty stuff, yeast prop and experiments, set it up to dose in line ex heat exchange and had brilliant results.

It can be expensive & a bit of mucking around but the best bit of having a brewery is beer and most welders and engineers love beer (as do Geo's).

Liquid yeast is a pain in the backside but the advantage is diversity. You can also get pure cultures from Wehienstephan and send them to a micro lab to be split and cryo stored the culture is about 120 Euro's and the micro lab is a few hund clams.

Cheers and Mad Monk beers

Beer Guy
11-01-2006, 05:56 PM
I assume there is copyright but you are not onselling the yeast and really would be no more of an infringement than cropping and using again. Ultimately though most/all brewery proprietry strains have come from somewhere and generally that is another brewery or a brewery yeast bank.

As for bottle yeasts alot of the yeasts used in bottle conditioning or hefe beers are not the primary yeast strain, plus after a lenghty boat trip from Europe in less than ideal conditions the yeast may not be in the best of shape.

For peace of mind it really is worth the $$ and effort as yeast is not the place to skimp or take chances with in your beer production(nor is malt hops or water for the record)

Cheers and upside down beers
Mad Monk

liammckenna
11-02-2006, 09:00 AM
Underpitching and underoxygenating will indeed accentuate ester production but have a thought to 4 vinyl guaiacol, the spicy/clove like phenolic important to many wheat beer styles. Production in wort/beer is linked to certain conditions.

1/ Grain bill - >30% wheat is recommended. It is the source of precursor to 4VG - ferulic acid.

2/ Fermentation temp - higher favours more.

3/Fermentator shape - dished or square favored over cylindro-conical

4/ Use of sterile wort for priming - favors 4VG

5/ Use of protein rest at 111-112oF, pH 5.7 - frees ferulic acid from pentosans it is bound to.

By overpitching and heavily oxygenating, you will lessen ester production and accentuate this important character. If you underpitch and underoxygenate, you'll risk overpowering this important compound with esters which may be short lived in bottle anyway.

Pax.

Liam

Hofer
11-12-2006, 02:22 PM
Greetings,
I'm planning on making a kristall weizen soon, and although I know the ideal yeast for this would be White Labs WLP300, the brewery owners wish to see if I can save some cash by using one of the Fermentis dry yeasts. The Safale K-97 looks promising, but I can't find anywhere if this strain will produce the clove-banana profiles I'd desire. Anyone have experience with this yeast?
Selling my bosses on the need for $500 worth of liquid yeast is tough indeed, especially given that the performance of the Safale-04 I used on my IPA was spectacular, given the huge savings.....

Thanks,

Rob

"To attempt to brew a classic Weissbier using English ale yeast would be like trying to make a single malt scotch in Japan." Eric Warner, "German Wheat Beer".
...I'm looking at Suntory single malt "Yamazaki" and don't know what to say.

Leonid

Hofer
11-12-2006, 03:01 PM
Underpitching and underoxygenating will indeed accentuate ester production but have a thought to 4 vinyl guaiacol, the spicy/clove like phenolic important to many wheat beer styles. Production in wort/beer is linked to certain conditions.

1/ Grain bill - >30% wheat is recommended. It is the source of precursor to 4VG - ferulic acid.

2/ Fermentation temp - higher favours more.

3/Fermentator shape - dished or square favored over cylindro-conical

4/ Use of sterile wort for priming - favors 4VG

5/ Use of protein rest at 111-112oF, pH 5.7 - frees ferulic acid from pentosans it is bound to.

By overpitching and heavily oxygenating, you will lessen ester production and accentuate this important character. If you underpitch and underoxygenate, you'll risk overpowering this important compound with esters which may be short lived in bottle anyway.

Pax.

Liam

1/ Grain bill: 1/3 wheat has maximum 4VG; you can have less wheat and enough clove and other flavor.
2/ ...Rule of thumb: target for 30C sum of pitching and fermenting temperatures. Pitching yeast at 12C and fermenting at 18C is a middle of the road.
5/ Use of protein rest at 111-112oF, pH 5.7: IMHO, it is misinterpretation.
It is optimal for 4VG, but recommended mash schedule is mash in at 35C (95F) and protein rest at 50C (122F). pH of the mash of 5.2-5.4 is the optimal as for any other beer style.
And the best recommendation is Eric Wagner's "German Wheat Beer": great reading!

ěl-sheik
11-13-2006, 09:24 AM
Kristall Weizen, that is what you want to do, right ? Meaning no deposits, yeast or proteins but cristall clear filtered!

And a Kristall Weizen goes much more towards the direction of a Lager, call it the missing link, no high aroma profil, low in esthers, so the challange is to keep iso-amyl acetat and 4 vinyl gujacol low!

Just my two german cents ..

jason.koehler
11-26-2006, 01:53 PM
"To attempt to brew a classic Weissbier using English ale yeast would be like trying to make a single malt scotch in Japan." Eric Warner, "German Wheat Beer".
...I'm looking at Suntory single malt "Yamazaki" and don't know what to say.

Leonid


Hey now! Japanese whiskey has come a long way in the last 10 years Mr. Eric Warner! :D

mr.jay
12-09-2006, 07:32 AM
How about fermentation temperature for maximum enhancement of 4 vinyl guaiacol? I've gotten mixed results despite temperature differences. There doesn't seem to be much merit in the old addage regarding clove vs. banana esters and temperatures. I found a higher level of iso amyl acetate just from using a dish fermentor, and definitley noticed a difference when I under-pitched. My customers called my beer runt weiss (people swore I fermeted the beer with thoses banana shaped runt candies you get from vending machines).
Long question short, after following all of the advice in Eric Warner's work as listed above (great book, by the way) i.e. over-pitching, thoroughly oxygenating, etc., what fermentation temperature would be best suited for enhancement of 4 vinyl guaiacol?

Pablo Alvarez
03-03-2007, 11:30 AM
We have set up an emulsion of natural spices extracts and bitter orange peel essence called WB-MIX (white beer mix). WB MIX is a brand maker to add to a standard base beer with low bitterness (10-12 EBU) as unique requisite to obtain a white beer with a taste and flavour close to the main commercial Belgian white beers. We also have developped WB-MIX-D to produce a German type weissbier.

You can find more information about this "brand final touch" concept on our website www.cbsbrew.com

Cheers!

Pablo Alvarez
www.cbsbrew.com

BrewinLou
04-05-2007, 06:51 PM
"To attempt to brew a classic Weissbier using English ale yeast would be like trying to make a single malt scotch in Japan."

Used Bourbon barrels ship to Japan just as easily as Scotland. Getting some peat might be a little more interesting...

gitchegumee
10-22-2009, 11:14 PM
So to dig up an older thread, I'm trying to make a fluffy, clove-spiced wheat. Banana and bubblegum flavors would be nice in moderation, too. I've roughed out the plan as follows: OG-12.6, FG-2.9 55% red wheat, 40% Pilsen, and 5% 10L Munich. I'll rest at 45C for 15 minutes before adding calcium and raising to 68C with hot water for a half hour rest to conversion. The mash will be quite thin; about 5:1. Planning a two hour boil. No oxygenation using dried Danstar Munich pitched at 500g/8bbl. So, back to this thread topic--at what temperature should I ferment to accentuate the phenolics?

BigWilley
10-23-2009, 07:07 AM
The warmer the fruitier and more bubblegum. Ive used 75F to get it real fruity. I have'nt heard much good about that particular strain though. I've always used whitelabs.

beermkr
10-23-2009, 07:16 AM
Rob,

Fermentis WB-06

Makes a superb Hefe!

HubCity
10-24-2009, 03:00 PM
I have to say the WB-06 does work pretty well. I have a roggen sitting in secondary atm that is turning out nicely. I think if I was going for a Hefe I would up the fermentation temp a bit from the 20 I fermented the roggen at.