Announcement

Collapse
No announcement yet.

Top Line C100 Leak Issues

Collapse
X
 
  • Filter
  • Time
  • Show
Clear All
new posts

  • Top Line C100 Leak Issues

    I have a pair of Topline C100 pumps that worked FLAWLESSLY for about 8 months or so.
    Now, I can't get them to seal reliably. I seem to be pulling them apart and cleaning every other week. I've replaced the carbon seals on both pumps within a couple months of putting fresh seals into them.

    Something must have changed in my process that makes me burn through seals so often.

    I have noticed that the plate that the carbon seal presses against has become worn over time. There are circular grooves worn into the back plate where the carbon seal sits. I tried taking some fine-grit sandpaper to smooth it out a bit and it seemed to take care of the leak (after replacing the seals), but the problem keeps coming back.

    Any ideas on how to get these pumps back up and running like new and not burn through seals every other month?

    Could the springs be wearing out and putting less pressure on the carbon seal?

  • #2
    Sandpaper.....Ouch!

    The surface that mechanical seals run on must be polished to beyond a mirror finish to seal properly. Sandpaper is the last thing that they want--even "fine" sandpaper. Or even ultrafine sandpaper. I'm afraid that you may have done more harm than good. You may have to bring the end plates to a seal specialist who can lap and polish the seal surface to required surface finish. These are good, inexpensive pumps and should last a very long time with no grooves showing up in seals. What would make these grooves? You have abrasive sand in your water or wort? Seems very odd. Only thing I can think of that would burn up seals is running them without lubrication. Meaning dry. Don't ever run pumps dry! Hope you can get this back on track. Good luck!
    Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

    Comment


    • #3
      Hi,

      As Phillip said, running the pump dry for prolonged periods and also a loose impeller shaft may cause excessive seal wear.

      Now, saw this tonight and I'm having my own problems with our Top Line C114 pump. Since the day I started at this brewery, the pump has been making all sorts of noises during wort transfers. Also, while mashing in, there seems to be allot of air bubbles in the sight glass and after a while the pump flow seems to slow down even if I increase the speed on the VFD. If I would stop the pump and start it again after a couple of seconds, it would go again only to slow down after some time. I just cant seem to work out why this is happening.

      Hopefully Phillip will know the answer to this (By the way, thank you for the great advise on carbonation. Had all sorts of problems with carbonation until I saw your post!)

      Comment


      • #4
        Originally posted by Gbbc View Post
        Hi,
        Now, saw this tonight and I'm having my own problems with our Top Line C114 pump. Since the day I started at this brewery, the pump has been making all sorts of noises during wort transfers. Also, while mashing in, there seems to be allot of air bubbles in the sight glass and after a while the pump flow seems to slow down even if I increase the speed on the VFD. If I would stop the pump and start it again after a couple of seconds, it would go again only to slow down after some time. I just cant seem to work out why this is happening.
        If your seeing air bubbles then I would guess you have a bad seal. When the pump is running it can actually suck air in through the seal, if the seal is bad. This can be bad if you use your pump to transfer final products between tanks as you can introduce oxygen.

        I would take your pump apart and check out the seal and backplate. I had issues several months ago and got to know my pump very intimately. I kept wearing out seals left and right. It eventually gouged and scratched the backplate, but a local machine shop fixed it for a few growler fills. The culprit was a mis adjusted set screw and not maintaining the correct spring pressure on the seal. Once I figured that out, I have not had the issue come back.

        Good Luck!

        Comment


        • #5
          Top Line

          We have 8 Top Line pumps and it's been my experience that they are very difficult to maintain...for exactly the types of problems you're having. In addition, the company in our territory has not been very reliable. Now, obviously Sandpaper is NOT the way to go!

          The back plate needs to be electro-polished, send it in to Top Line and they'll do it for you...not expensive at all. In fact, we bought a few extra so that we rotate and change them out...again not so expensive.

          You might want to consider the water nozzle attachment that sprays water on the seal during operation, that seems to have helped us a bit.

          My choice for buying new pumps in the future would be Waukesha, Hilge, Alfa Laval or other high quality pumps that have a more rugged seal design, but of course those pumps are much more expensive...but then if you consider the number of hours i've spent fixing them times the man hour cost, we would have probably saved money ROI on buying better pumps.
          Alex Postelnek, Lead Brewer
          Funky Buddha Brewery
          Ft. Lauderdale, FL 33334
          (561) 945 - 4584
          alex@funkybuddhabrewery.com

          Comment


          • #6
            If you are pumping wort or beer--especially wort--you must use a flushed-seal pump. Our Vorlauff pump (WCB C104) ate a seal a week before I converted it to a flushed seal, the seal has now lasted for >5 years without a leak. If your C100 pumps are like ours, the seal is external to the pump, and making it a flushed seal is a simple matter of rigging a line that keeps that external seal bathed in running water when in use.
            Timm Turrentine

            Brewerywright,
            Terminal Gravity Brewing,
            Enterprise. Oregon.

            Comment


            • #7
              seal flush

              Originally posted by TGTimm View Post
              If you are pumping wort or beer--especially wort--you must use a flushed-seal pump. Our Vorlauff pump (WCB C104) ate a seal a week before I converted it to a flushed seal, the seal has now lasted for >5 years without a leak. If your C100 pumps are like ours, the seal is external to the pump, and making it a flushed seal is a simple matter of rigging a line that keeps that external seal bathed in running water when in use.
              Reviving old thread....

              Timm,

              Did you rig your own seal flush assembly on a C100? If so I would be interested in seeing a picture of it if possible as I too am going through seals on my Topline C100 and which seems to be almost identical to the Waukesha C-100. I am looking to upgrade to a C-114 with the water cascade but if I can avoid it for a little while it saves me some money I can spend elsewhere.

              Thanks,
              Kevin
              Frenchtown Brewing Company

              Comment


              • #8
                Yeah, it's pretty easy to do if you're comfortable soldering copper.

                Our pumps are actually WCB C114s, but I think all the C100 line is similar enough. There should be a tapped hole in the shaft housing just behind (towards motor) the seal. I used a piece of 1/4" soft copper tubing, swaged over a 6d finish nail to make a nozzle, then soldered into a threaded reducing bushing to fit that hole. Bend the lower end of the tubing to get the water where it drips over the exposed seal, add a flare fitting to a John Guest fitting to match your flexible water line, and Bob's yer uncle.

                It doesn't take much of a water flow to do the job-- a little more than a drip.

                Loc-Line tubing would be ideal for this--I just happened to have the copper tubing and bushing handy.

                I'll try to get some pics when I get back from fishing and hunting this weekend.
                Timm Turrentine

                Brewerywright,
                Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                Enterprise. Oregon.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by TGTimm View Post
                  Yeah, it's pretty easy to do if you're comfortable soldering copper.

                  Our pumps are actually WCB C114s, but I think all the C100 line is similar enough. There should be a tapped hole in the shaft housing just behind (towards motor) the seal. I used a piece of 1/4" soft copper tubing, swaged over a 6d finish nail to make a nozzle, then soldered into a threaded reducing bushing to fit that hole. Bend the lower end of the tubing to get the water where it drips over the exposed seal, add a flare fitting to a John Guest fitting to match your flexible water line, and Bob's yer uncle.

                  It doesn't take much of a water flow to do the job-- a little more than a drip.

                  Loc-Line tubing would be ideal for this--I just happened to have the copper tubing and bushing handy.

                  I'll try to get some pics when I get back from fishing and hunting this weekend.
                  Thanks for the explanation
                  Good luck hunting!

                  Cheers, Kevin

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    As someone else who has a set of these and they have failed in the exact same manner, I would also like to see some photos if possible.
                    Denver, Colorado.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Unfortunately, the pump I did this on is our vorlauff/transfer pump, which is hard-piped, difficult to remove, and presently in use.

                      But, here's a picture of the seal washer in use, mostly showing where it is:

                      Click image for larger version

Name:	2015-11-11 001 C114 seal washer.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	57.9 KB
ID:	190794

                      Obviously, my description was a bit off--but, then, I made this over five years ago, and I'm over fifty-five, so memory is not what it used to be. The 1/4" soft copper tubing is soldered inside the brass nipple (I had to wrap some 12 ga. clean, bare copper wire around the tubing to fill the gap) threaded into the pump housing, bent about 90 degrees to sit just over the seal, which is barely visible to the left.

                      I'll be pulling this seal washer out sometime soon to make another and I'll try to get some pics when I do.

                      CPE Systems--a sponsor here--has an excellent tutorial on adjusting these seals on their site. Read it. Poor adjustment can also cause premature seal failure. The WCB pumps seem to come properly adjusted from the plant; others may not.

                      BTW--see that black crap on the Teflon pipe tape? That's another reason I don't use it anymore--it's a magnet for brewery crud, and can't be cleaned. Three cheers for Loc-tite 542 thread sealant/locker!
                      Last edited by TGTimm; 11-11-2015, 03:04 PM.
                      Timm Turrentine

                      Brewerywright,
                      Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                      Enterprise. Oregon.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Sorry, folks, my bad. I just looked at the specs for the Top Line C100 pumps, and they don't appear to have the threaded boss to mount a seal washer. Maybe one could find a way to mount one, but I'd have to actually see a pump to figure it out.

                        If you upgrade to the C114 pumps, this mod will work just fine.
                        Timm Turrentine

                        Brewerywright,
                        Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                        Enterprise. Oregon.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by TGTimm View Post
                          Sorry, folks, my bad. I just looked at the specs for the Top Line C100 pumps, and they don't appear to have the threaded boss to mount a seal washer. Maybe one could find a way to mount one, but I'd have to actually see a pump to figure it out.

                          If you upgrade to the C114 pumps, this mod will work just fine.
                          Here's the setup that I rigged up for my C100. The tube up the handle holds enough water to provide a constant drip through the whirlpool and transfer. I had to drill and tap a pipe thread into the outer housing.

                          I still have issues at least monthly where I need to tear down the whole setup and clean dried wort off the carbon seal. My next step is to send some of the plates in to Topline to have them resurfaced.

                          Click image for larger version

Name:	20150217_111352.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	97.9 KB
ID:	190795Click image for larger version

Name:	20150217_111406.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	95.8 KB
ID:	190796

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Wit's--very nice work, but... it sounds like you're either not getting enough water to the seal or it's not going to the right place. The water needs to flow (more than just drip) over the mating parts of the seal. If you have it set up right, you'll never have problems with "dried wort" again--after you get the backplate re-faced.

                            This mod will also greatly prolong seal life on a CIP pump--hot caustic/cleaner solutions are nearly as hard on seals as hot wort.
                            Timm Turrentine

                            Brewerywright,
                            Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                            Enterprise. Oregon.

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by TGTimm View Post
                              Wit's--very nice work, but... it sounds like you're either not getting enough water to the seal or it's not going to the right place. The water needs to flow (more than just drip) over the mating parts of the seal. If you have it set up right, you'll never have problems with "dried wort" again--after you get the backplate re-faced.

                              This mod will also greatly prolong seal life on a CIP pump--hot caustic/cleaner solutions are nearly as hard on seals as hot wort.
                              An earlier post said that just a drip was fine. I'm running about a drip a second.
                              It wouldn't be an issue, but I don't have a floor drain under the brewhouse, so I can't really have water just dumping all over the floor.

                              Comment

                              Working...
                              X