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Fred Scheer
10-17-2005, 03:06 PM
HI Forumer:

I recently obserd a white stone deposits in my Bright beer tanks. I'm using PBW. The same product performance in my Fermenters does not has that problem.
Also, after rinsing I see a gel like substance coming out of the line (rinsing with water PBW out).
After looking for variables that could have changed, I don't find any:

* no change in minerals of water
* cleaning temp. is the same (~155 -160*F)
* pH of water is the same.
I called FiveStar and they looking into the problem.
Just wanted to see if any of you observed the same.

Thanks,

Fred :rolleyes:

beerkeep
10-17-2005, 09:27 PM
Hi Fred,

We use PBW followed by acid #6 when cleaning. We have a build up of what looks like white beer stone on the side of the tank but only in the tanks (brite and fermenter) that have top manways. The tanks with side manways are clean. Talk to Five Star as well and they could not figure it out. I think the PBW is reacting with the co2 that is left in the tank and causing the white precipitate. The side manways allow the co2 to escape so there is no problem. So far the white stone is impossible to get off.


just a thought Tim

beauxman
10-17-2005, 11:56 PM
make sure to evacuate your vessel of CO2, I would run the pump (CIP) with side manyways open or in the case of top ones, any open ports wide open for 5-10 minutes to purge the tank of CO2, then pour in your caustic. Also, make sure your caustic is completely disolved before your pour it in (powdered form). I mix it in hot water before and then pour it in.

Fred Scheer
10-18-2005, 06:54 AM
Hi Fred,

We use PBW followed by acid #6 when cleaning. We have a build up of what looks like white beer stone on the side of the tank but only in the tanks (brite and fermenter) that have top manways. The tanks with side manways are clean. Talk to Five Star as well and they could not figure it out. I think the PBW is reacting with the co2 that is left in the tank and causing the white precipitate. The side manways allow the co2 to escape so there is no problem. So far the white stone is impossible to get off.


just a thought Tim

That's a possibility. Even I run water to get ride of CO2, it looks like some is still in. I will try some other stuff and let you know.

Thanks
Fred

Fred Scheer
10-18-2005, 06:57 AM
make sure to evacuate your vessel of CO2, I would run the pump (CIP) with side manyways open or in the case of top ones, any open ports wide open for 5-10 minutes to purge the tank of CO2, then pour in your caustic. Also, make sure your caustic is completely disolved before your pour it in (powdered form). I mix it in hot water before and then pour it in.

I did not mention that my Bright beer tanks have top manways.
I run enough water to eliminate CO2, maybe not enough......
The PBW is completely dissolved; we dissolve in a bucket, mix well and than pour into the tank with hot water.

Thanks,

Fred

NESTAFL
10-19-2005, 09:31 PM
Fred,
From my experience, not following a "caustic" with acid can and will result in this build up. Especially the abrasive powders. Even if dissolved they seem to need acid to act as a ?stone? remover. I realize you are not talking about to same white residue left as from spillage/splash that appears on the outside. You are refering to the smaller, stone looking material on the rim of your manways and such. All I know to say is I have worked in breweries that are commited to following with acid and those that are not... Those that are following, do not ever seem to experience this. Those that do not, fight this every two months or so. Welcome to opinions and processes within.

As far as how to get rid of it... be very very careful and try some nitric acid with gloves, mask and whatever else you feel needed and scrub. I works easier than phos. but more dangerous. Good luck!

Fred Scheer
10-20-2005, 08:36 AM
...............From my experience, not following a "caustic" with acid can and will result in this build up

Some suppliers recommend first "acid" cleaning, followed by "caustic".
What are your thoughts on that?

Fred

NESTAFL
10-20-2005, 05:58 PM
Yea, I have heard of acid before caustic also. I have never done it nor have I worked with anyone who does. I guess my opinion is... as you know caustic is nasty stuff. And tough to rinse. So using the caustic with heat will no doubt break lose and pretty much "clean" most anything. After the caustic you triple rinse... is that enough? Sometimes yes sometimes no. So by following with acid, not only do I feel better considering the tank closer to brite, but at least better rinsed. I also believe when following with a no rinse sani, I would prefer the acid to be previous, opposed to the caustic. Ideally the the caustic and acid should neutralize each other. Leaving the sani to do its job.

Back to the white residue... my opinion is it is build up. In other words residue, from those slight areas that never get properly rinsed. By the time it becomes noticable, you are scrubbing layer after layer.

I realize time and cost are issues when adding another chemical and 20 min. cycle. To that I say pick your battles and jerry rig that scedule. You may be able to do acid every other cleaning cycle. And/or 15 min. caustic - 15 min. acid. I know we all do enough tedious scrubbing and surely do not like to add to it. I am not saying if you start following with acid, your problems will be solved overnight. However, I have seen a noticable difference when conforming to brewery to brewery's cleaning procedures. Try it for about three months, if it helps, adjust accordingly. If not let us know. Hopefully this provides some food for thought. Good luck and keep us informed!

beauxman
10-20-2005, 06:15 PM
I agree with the acid schedule every few cycles. Once you remove your stone, this routine should keep it from coming back. We do this very routine and have good success. You spend a little more on chems but your tanks are tight!

-Beaux

Fred Scheer
10-21-2005, 08:23 AM
Thanks for all the responses...................
Will keep you posted.............................

Fred :)

Jmac87
08-03-2006, 09:16 PM
the acid wash should remove it. The white buildup is probably a result of the caustic reacting with the oils in the tanks. the acid will react with any left over caustic just be careful espacially using nitric.

scott isham
08-04-2006, 04:43 AM
I tought PBW is non-caustic.

mr.jay
08-05-2006, 03:04 PM
It is my understanding that "caustic" referes to NaOH or KOH, and because most sodium based cleaners are highly corrosive, caustic has become somewhat of a misnomer. PBW is made up of sodium meta-silicate, and is marketed as a "safe alternative to caustic." I find it is great for cleaning casks. Pour some in, and fill the cask with 150-154 degree water, and I can actually see particulate matter bubbling to the surface. As far as using it in CIP cycles, I find it to be more of a nucience. It always leaves a film, and I wind up having to reach in to the manway to scrub out the krausen ring, which kind of defeats the purpose of a cleaning cycle in the first place. I was told that it is a wonderful product to use in conjunction with caustic, but I've run CIP cycles having blended the 2, and I notice no difference in it's effectivness. Sorry to wander off the subject a bit, but I thought I would give my $.02. I used to swear by powdered brewery wash, now I just keep it around to clean my casks, and the occasional Corny keg for personal use.

BigWilley
08-07-2006, 09:24 AM
A couple of things I have noticed about PBW. It works much better with soft water at low concentrations, like 1/2 -3/4 oz per gallon. It actually is not as effective at too high a concentration in soft water. I do use acid then PBW on the Kettle and Mash tun. And if I have a really filthy unitank that has had beer in it for a long time. So if you have soft water use less PBW and check the results. Also if you are cleaning bright tanks that have held filtered beer you should be able to use Acid #6 or an equivelant as a stand alone cleaner with no caustic/PBW. You can also clean under pressure if only using acid and this saves time and CO2. I will clean under pressure once then open the tank on the next round to visually check and i have had no problems when doing this. Occasionally I will use PBW just to be safe. Birko printed some articles about the logic behind acid then caustic. Rather than try to remember what was said I would refer you to Dana at Birko I'm sure he would answer your questions and forward this article.

Larry Horwitz
08-07-2006, 12:05 PM
What's your program for cleaning under pressure? How are you getting chemicals in...and rinse water out?

BigWilley
08-07-2006, 12:21 PM
Procedure for CIP under pressure.
1) Empty serving tank, kegs, whatever.
2) Raise temp controller to desires setting (110F for my application)
3) Hook up cold water hose with TC connector to CIP/Sprayball arm.
4) Rinse tank by turning opening CIP valve to let cold H2O in while simultaneously opening bottom drain valve on server to push rinse water out. You can let the rinse water build up a bit and drain intermittently or try to equalize the drain valve by opening it partially.
5) Shut all valves and switch to hot water, repeat #4 till you hit desired temp.
6) Fill a keg with acid #6 solution and blow it into the tank under pressure.
7) Hook up pump and let recirc under pressure 30 minutes.
8) Shut down pump and open bottom valve on tank to drain acid.
9) repeat #4 to rinse
10) repeat #6 with no rinse sanitizer instead of acid.
11) repeat #7
12) Drain sani (I push it through the serving line for good measure) and fill with beer.
I dont mean to be overly explanatory but this process is tricky until you do it once then its a piece of cake, much like filtering.

Larry Horwitz
08-07-2006, 01:04 PM
Sweet,

thanks for the description

VoodooBrewery
08-19-2006, 05:26 PM
The issue with PBW is that when draining the vessel, cool air is allowed in and that allows flash evaporation of the cleaner which will create the white staining of the vessel. You should start a rinse before you empty the PBW wash allowing some pressure to build up, then open your drain, to get the residue from offen the inner skin of the vessel. This will reduce the amount of mineral stain in the vessel. Also PBW is not good with all water tables.

AMS0286
04-29-2015, 09:13 AM
We've always cleaned our brite tanks under pressure and recently upon opening one up we were shocked to find a tremendous amount of white chalky substance adhered to the side walls, dome top and some of the dish bottom of the tank. We used to use Five Star Acid # 6 per the instructions only, but because we don't filter our beer and the less than ideal results of Acid # 6 only we began using PBW prior to Acid # 6 as a way to still clean the tank packed with Co2 and under pressure. We include thorough rinses between cycles and the PBW cycle is done hot. We're not positive it's PBW residue, but it really seems to be the case. I've searched around them internets, called Five Star (still waiting to hear back) and tried a number of things already. We've tried a higher concentration cycle with Acid # 5 hot, higher concentration cycle Acid # 6 cold, a cycle with a few gallons of distilled white vinegar, Citrasurf rust remover and passivation solution, and nothing seems to work. Even manual scrubbing with blue scoth brite pads doesnt seem to work. Is there any light that the sages of Probrewer.com can shed on this issue?

Thanks in advance!

Thirsty_Monk
04-29-2015, 03:48 PM
We've always cleaned our brite tanks under pressure and recently upon opening one up we were shocked to find a tremendous amount of white chalky substance adhered to the side walls, dome top and some of the dish bottom of the tank. We used to use Five Star Acid # 6 per the instructions only, but because we don't filter our beer and the less than ideal results of Acid # 6 only we began using PBW prior to Acid # 6 as a way to still clean the tank packed with Co2 and under pressure. We include thorough rinses between cycles and the PBW cycle is done hot. We're not positive it's PBW residue, but it really seems to be the case. I've searched around them internets, called Five Star (still waiting to hear back) and tried a number of things already. We've tried a higher concentration cycle with Acid # 5 hot, higher concentration cycle Acid # 6 cold, a cycle with a few gallons of distilled white vinegar, Citrasurf rust remover and passivation solution, and nothing seems to work. Even manual scrubbing with blue scoth brite pads doesnt seem to work. Is there any light that the sages of Probrewer.com can shed on this issue?

Thanks in advance!

I think you are on the right track. It is PBW film.

dick murton
05-01-2015, 04:13 AM
Get your water mineral ion levels checked out. If for instance you have very hard water, particularly with large amounts of bicarbonate in it, then PBW may not have enough sequesterants to be able to dissolve / hold in solution all the mineral salts, and you may be depositing them. Because both the acids have phosphoric acid in them, this might be reacting with any deposited calcium to for insoluble calcium phosphate.

The salts may be being deposited if you use cold unsoftened water for rinsing immediately after the hot PBW. I know from experience that this can leave calcium deposits over a period of time, from the thermal breakdown of calcium bicarbonate to less soluble calcium phosphate. Also, calcium sulphate is apparently slightly less soluble in hot water than cold water, so you may be getting a little calcium sulphate deposition as well

Try using a pure nitric acid based detergent to remove the existing scale.

Longer term, consider cleaning using acid, but with periodic, say monthly caustic (if necessary specially formulated for your water) cleans for protein removal.

datamine
05-14-2015, 10:56 AM
Could be water scaling, could be silica scaling, could be both (I think.) PBW is an alkali silicate based cleaner and with regular use will leave silica scaling (search that in google images - gross!)

Acid (TA/KMS-10/whatever) will remove hard water scaling really well and silica scaling moderately well. Personally I prefer a chlorinated caustic to remove silica scaling.

Acid should work. Nitric acid as per Dick's suggestion should as well. If at all possible I'd recommend giving Loeffler Chemical a call and strongly consider switching to them, that would be a tangible improvement.

campbell.brian
07-02-2015, 02:07 PM
You should start a rinse before you empty the PBW wash allowing some pressure to build up, then open your drain, to get the residue from offen the inner skin of the vessel. This will reduce the amount of mineral stain in the vessel. Also PBW is not good with all water tables.

This is quite a common problem from customers using Sodium Metasilicate non-caustic cleaners. Fortunately, it is easy to fix and even easier to prevent. A 2.5% by volume solution of LERADES CSR at 120-130F followed immediately by a potable water rinse will remove this scale.

When solutions of Sodium Metasilicate are allowed to dry, they leave behind a very stubborn silicate that is hard to remove by acid CIP. We always make the recommendation to rinse non-caustic cleaners immediately and do not allow them to dry on equipment. This includes soaking applications where small amounts of the solution can dry at the liquid level, forming a white ring. If you are soaking parts in non-caustic cleaners (or anything for that matter), make sure the part is fully submerged and that nothing is protruding from the liquid surface. As for soaking applications inside of vessels, I recommend against it.


Get your water mineral ion levels checked out. If for instance you have very hard water, particularly with large amounts of bicarbonate in it, then PBW may not have enough sequesterants to be able to dissolve / hold in solution all the mineral salts, and you may be depositing them. Because both the acids have phosphoric acid in them, this might be reacting with any deposited calcium to for insoluble calcium phosphate.

The salts may be being deposited if you use cold unsoftened water for rinsing immediately after the hot PBW. I know from experience that this can leave calcium deposits over a period of time, from the thermal breakdown of calcium bicarbonate to less soluble calcium phosphate. Also, calcium sulphate is apparently slightly less soluble in hot water than cold water, so you may be getting a little calcium sulphate deposition as well

Try using a pure nitric acid based detergent to remove the existing scale.

Longer term, consider cleaning using acid, but with periodic, say monthly caustic (if necessary specially formulated for your water) cleans for protein removal.

Generally, non-caustic cleaners like PBW, LERAPUR NC, etc. are sufficiently sequestered for most brewing water with the use of EDTA. While this is not as environmentally friendly as other sequesterants typically used in highly-formulated caustics, the use of a non-caustic cleaner should not impact the development of Calcium Oxalate (beerstone). Using non-sequestered alkaline cleaners, or cleaners insufficiently sequestered for your water hardness can contribute to Calcium and Magnesium (hard water) scale. Dick is right to trial a Nitric and / or Phosphoric Acid. If these scales are easily removed, it is most likely beerstone or hard water scale. However, I may recommend a Nitric-Phosphoric blend (Loeffler's LERACID K-MS 10 or LERACID KMS, Five Star's Acid #5 or Acid #6, Birko's Ultra Niter or Acid Bright #2, etcetera) as handling these products are easier than concentrated Nitric. If strong acid (3% by acid) cycles have no impact on these scales, it is time to eliminate non-caustic cleaners and graduate into commercial CIP products. Also, Sulfamic acid based products (216BSR) can be used at cool or ambient temperatures for severe beerstone and hardness scale, although don't use these as part of your regular acid CIP regimen.