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  • Yeast management 3BBL Brewery help!

    Hello guys,
    I run a 3BBL small batch brewery and I am looking to gain more knowledge on yeast management. I have been reusing my yeast but have not been very successful after 3 generations. The yeast lag and get very tired. I have obviously harvested yeast and done starters home brewing for 5-10gallon batches but not to this size. I have battled a few stuck fermentations. I have some friends in the industry that have given me some insight as well but they brew on much larger systems. My questions are:

    1. I was told by a fellow brewer that after 2nd use of new yeast it now time to take that yeast off the cone, do a starter, and feed the yeast. If I want to do this how much yeast do I take off the cone of the 2nd batch?

    2. After taking the yeast off the 2nd batch cone, how much starter/wort do I need to use to get for a 3BBL batch of yeast (A new batch of yeast from WhiteLabs for 3BBL is about 500ml)?

    3. How much yeast nutrients should I use in a 3BBL batch of starter?

    Any help and/or breakdown would be greatly appreciated. Thanks!

  • #2
    I'm not sure I understand why your friend would recommend taking a small portion of your 2nd gen yeast and do a starter with it. The yeast should be able to be harvested and repitched normally with better-than-1st-gen results. There must be something else your doing wrong. In order to figure out what's up, tell us more about how your handling your yeast. Yeast strain? How are you pulling the yeast off the cone? What container, pressures, temperatures, etc? How do you handle the yeast from the time it comes out of the fridge to the time it is pitched? Pitching temps? Aeration?

    Comment


    • #3
      You can get all of this information in the book "Yeast" by Jamil and Chris White, of Whitelabs fame. Just about the best $25 you can spend in your brewery.

      Comment


      • #4
        What is your current process?
        That info may help find better solution to your problem.

        Also BSI has a ton of great information on their website as well. But I second purchasing Yeast.

        The Brewing Science Institute offers the highest quality yeast cultures, lab services, and products for brewing professionals. Browse our wide selection of yeast.

        Comment


        • #5
          Originally posted by Junkyard View Post
          I'm not sure I understand why your friend would recommend taking a small portion of your 2nd gen yeast and do a starter with it. The yeast should be able to be harvested and repitched normally with better-than-1st-gen results. There must be something else your doing wrong. In order to figure out what's up, tell us more about how your handling your yeast. Yeast strain? How are you pulling the yeast off the cone? What container, pressures, temperatures, etc? How do you handle the yeast from the time it comes out of the fridge to the time it is pitched? Pitching temps? Aeration?
          This is my process as this is somewhat like I used to do on a homebrew setup.
          After fermentation is done or all my marks have been hit, I take a container and open up the valve on the cone and catch yeast until beer flows. I take that container and put into the plastic containers that WhiteLabs uses when they send new yeast out. Of course everything is cleaned and sanitized before hand...I will do this multiple times if I have to and will sometimes get about 2-3 containers full. I then cap the containers, label, date, and into the cooler until I use them for next batch. If need be I will take them out and wash them by decanting the spent beer then pour in clean/sanitized cold water, never letting the yeast warm up during the process...once done I then put back into the cooler until the next brew session.
          When I brew I take yeast out and let warm to room temp. before pitching. I usually pitch twice as much as first time. So WhiteLabs will send about 500ml of yeast for a 3BBL...my next pitch from the yeast will be 1000-1200ml without a yeast starter.
          I know I am missing something, or stressing the yeast too much. I just need to learn a better process of handling the yeast for the 3+ generations...It seems like the yeast is not working well after 2nd use...Thanks again everyone.
          The strands of yeast I use are:
          Irish Ale
          English Ale
          California Ale

          Comment


          • #6
            What is the average length of time your yeast sits in the cold box before pitching?

            Do you know any brewers in the area that can do a cell count? Any chance you can purchase a microscope, hemocytometer and some methylene blue?

            Does the yeast container build pressure over time?

            Do not judge your proper pitch by the yeast lab pitchable quantity. They do not sell pitchable quantities at the same amount as your standard 1 million cells/mL/plato. I see average of .3-.5 million cells/ml/plato coming from white labs. Its completely sufficient and keeps the shipping costs down, but you will get better performance at the proper rate.

            Comment


            • #7
              We are a 3bbl system and usually pitch 3000ml - 3400ml of 40% slurry into a 100 gallon batch (3.2bbl). Our pitch volume varies beer to beer due to gravity, yeast harvest date, and yeast density while always aiming to pitch 1 million cells/ml/degree Plato. We increase our pitch rate slightly for our IPA's due to gravity. We always harvest at least one day in advance and allow the pitch to settle in the cooler so we can determine a slurry density, most often the yeast is chilling in the cooler for a few days before use. From this slurry density reading we can determine the total volume needed for the current batch. Of course, a count under a microscope would trump this, but isn't currently in the cards. Currently we use 2k ml flasks and beakers to harvest but have used Nalgene bottles in the past...any vessel that can be reliably sanitized/sterilized is certainly required.

              Besides pitch rate, what is your procedure regarding yeast health? Oxygen rate? Nutrient additions? We had some sluggish ferments and diacetyl issues due to a dirty/fouled air stone for our O2 tank. While we were pushing with 1.25 liters/min oxygen we actually had much less entering the wort stream and resulted in a repitch and extended ferment situation. Needless to say, our hot side cleaning regimen of our stone and chiller has changed since. O2 and nutrient additions largely impact further repitching and next generation health besides being necessary for the current ferment.

              Long story short, pitch more yeast and make sure you are hitting it with enough nutrient and oxygen.

              Cheers,

              Tom Hill
              Bemidji Brewing Co.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by Pugs13 View Post
                This is my process as this is somewhat like I used to do on a homebrew setup.
                After fermentation is done or all my marks have been hit, I take a container and open up the valve on the cone and catch yeast until beer flows. I take that container and put into the plastic containers that WhiteLabs uses when they send new yeast out. Of course everything is cleaned and sanitized before hand...I will do this multiple times if I have to and will sometimes get about 2-3 containers full. I then cap the containers, label, date, and into the cooler until I use them for next batch. If need be I will take them out and wash them by decanting the spent beer then pour in clean/sanitized cold water, never letting the yeast warm up during the process...once done I then put back into the cooler until the next brew session.
                When I brew I take yeast out and let warm to room temp. before pitching. I usually pitch twice as much as first time. So WhiteLabs will send about 500ml of yeast for a 3BBL...my next pitch from the yeast will be 1000-1200ml without a yeast starter.
                I know I am missing something, or stressing the yeast too much. I just need to learn a better process of handling the yeast for the 3+ generations...It seems like the yeast is not working well after 2nd use...Thanks again everyone.
                The strands of yeast I use are:
                Irish Ale
                English Ale
                California Ale
                You only want to catch the creamy healthy yeast, dump the first stuff that comes out of the cone. invest in some Nalgene silo bottles, they are graduated with ml marks and can be bought for $10 from nalgene.com . Pass up the first yeast that comes out, and wait till you get the really creamy yeast, (results vary depending on whether you dump trub or not) Then dump that creamy yeast into your nalgenes. You are currently not pitching enough, you will need to fill 2 of the silos to the brim, or if you want extra room you could fill 3 of the silos part way, Most likely after it settles out in the fridge it will be around 40% yeast solids like Tom said.


                1200 ml is almost certainly not enough yeast for a 3bbl, i pitch about 1500-1800 ml of 40%-50% yeast solids into a 1.5 bbl batch (45 gallons) this works good for me, but, like Tom said, counting cells before pitching would be most desirable. .

                Also, rinsing your yeast is probably not necessary unless its a very high gravity beer, but if you do rinse your yeast make darn sure that the water you are using is the EXACT same temperature as your yeast slurry. It may not seem like a big difference to you, but to a single celled organism... a slight temp change can really shock them.

                you might already do this, but on that same trail of thought, make sure when you pitch the slurry it is the same temp as your wort.

                and as Tom mentioned make sure you are getting enough oxygen in your wort as well.
                Last edited by Junkyard; 07-28-2014, 08:28 PM.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Inthelab View Post
                  What is the average length of time your yeast sits in the cold box before pitching? After collecting from the cone the yeast usually sits in the container in the cooler at about 40F for about a week.
                  Do you know any brewers in the area that can do a cell count? Any chance you can purchase a microscope, hemocytometer and some methylene blue?
                  I just got my microscope yesterday but have no experience counting yeast. I would love to learn. I was able to look at some Irish Ale yeast I have taken off of a newly fermented Irish Red Ale. The scope was set to 10x I believe...I definitely have a new fascination and appreciation for my little buddies. Now if I could learn more about caring for them. Any chance that you could give me a break down on how to do this.

                  Does the yeast container build pressure over time? My Irish Ale yeast does NOT always but my English Ale and Cal. yeast does. Especially the Cal. yeast. (WLP001)

                  Do not judge your proper pitch by the yeast lab pitchable quantity. They do not sell pitchable quantities at the same amount as your standard 1 million cells/mL/plato. I see average of .3-.5 million cells/ml/plato coming from white labs. Its completely sufficient and keeps the shipping costs down, but you will get better performance at the proper rate.
                  I would love to learn more about managing yeast and getting the most out of my yeast. I need to learn more about nutrients and how much to use, when to use. I just received my oxygen stone as well and will be getting set up for that within the next week. How do you clean an Oxygen stone, hot water? Any info. would be greatly appreciated. Thanks

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by BemidjiBrewing View Post
                    We are a 3bbl system and usually pitch 3000ml - 3400ml of 40% slurry into a 100 gallon batch (3.2bbl). Our pitch volume varies beer to beer due to gravity, yeast harvest date, and yeast density while always aiming to pitch 1 million cells/ml/degree Plato. We increase our pitch rate slightly for our IPA's due to gravity. We always harvest at least one day in advance and allow the pitch to settle in the cooler so we can determine a slurry density, most often the yeast is chilling in the cooler for a few days before use. From this slurry density reading we can determine the total volume needed for the current batch. Of course, a count under a microscope would trump this, but isn't currently in the cards. Currently we use 2k ml flasks and beakers to harvest but have used Nalgene bottles in the past...any vessel that can be reliably sanitized/sterilized is certainly required.

                    Besides pitch rate, what is your procedure regarding yeast health? Oxygen rate? Nutrient additions? We had some sluggish ferments and diacetyl issues due to a dirty/fouled air stone for our O2 tank. While we were pushing with 1.25 liters/min oxygen we actually had much less entering the wort stream and resulted in a repitch and extended ferment situation. Needless to say, our hot side cleaning regimen of our stone and chiller has changed since. O2 and nutrient additions largely impact further repitching and next generation health besides being necessary for the current ferment.

                    Long story short, pitch more yeast and make sure you are hitting it with enough nutrient and oxygen.

                    Cheers,

                    Tom Hill

                    Bemidji Brewing Co.
                    If I were to take a trip up to visit you guys, would you be willing to show me a few tricks? I think it would be more than worth my time and gas. I am located in Buffalo, MN here at Hayes' Public House. Give me a shout. Thanks guys.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Feel free to make the trip up whenever, just give me a heads up by a week or two and I will make sure I'm available to chat and not working the taproom.

                      Cheers,
                      Tom
                      tom@bemidjibeer.com

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Pugs13 View Post
                        This is my process as this is somewhat like I used to do on a homebrew setup.
                        After fermentation is done or all my marks have been hit, I take a container and open up the valve on the cone and catch yeast until beer flows. I take that container and put into the plastic containers that WhiteLabs uses when they send new yeast out. Of course everything is cleaned and sanitized before hand...I will do this multiple times if I have to and will sometimes get about 2-3 containers full. I then cap the containers, label, date, and into the cooler until I use them for next batch. If need be I will take them out and wash them by decanting the spent beer then pour in clean/sanitized cold water, never letting the yeast warm up during the process...once done I then put back into the cooler until the next brew session.
                        When I brew I take yeast out and let warm to room temp. before pitching. I usually pitch twice as much as first time. So WhiteLabs will send about 500ml of yeast for a 3BBL...my next pitch from the yeast will be 1000-1200ml without a yeast starter.
                        I know I am missing something, or stressing the yeast too much. I just need to learn a better process of handling the yeast for the 3+ generations...It seems like the yeast is not working well after 2nd use...Thanks again everyone.
                        The strands of yeast I use are:
                        Irish Ale
                        English Ale
                        California Ale

                        It sounds like you are harvesting and selecting for early floccs based on the description of your process. Harvest after crashing and take the creamy goodness from the middle of the cone. On top of that I agree with the others that your are probably under pitching by quite a bit

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by soia1138 View Post
                          It sounds like you are harvesting and selecting for early floccs based on the description of your process. Harvest after crashing and take the creamy goodness from the middle of the cone. On top of that I agree with the others that your are probably under pitching by quite a bit
                          I don't actually get to cold crash since we don't have BT. We use 120 gallon plastic conicals with temp control rooms for now until we can upgrade. I guess the only cold crashing we do is after kegging we put kegs in the cooler and hook to carbonation. I do get some really good yeast of our cone though, we keep the room at 67F which keeps our fermentation temps at about 69-71F and get pretty good flocculation. Maybe I will have to take off the cone and then cold crash in bottles...once cold crashed in bottles harvest the good creamy yeast and then feed and do a starter? I am going to start counting yeast but have to learn the process. Thanks for any info.

                          Comment

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