Cell counts in White Labs commercial pitches.

[johnny17]

Just started at a new brewery and we brewed our first beer the other day, a 15°P (1.060) IPA. We pitched 2 Whitelabs 5-7 BBL commercial pitches of WLP 090 (1.6L each) into 15 BBL or 1800 L of wort. We had a glycol issue immediately after pitch which brought the beer from 20°C to 16°C (2°C below what White Labs says is optimal for this strain). The wort was adequately aerated, the yeast should have adequate nutrients, and the yeast was fresh, arriving cold that day. The beer had a much longer lag phase than I have seen before, as it didn't kick in until around the 50 to 55 hour mark, which seems an extraordinarily long time for only being 2 degrees below optimal temp. I have never brewed without propping before, and we don't have a lab set up yet for cell counting as this was our first brew. I'm having trouble finding info on the actual cell counts in these pitches as I want to make a decision on whether we should figure out a propagation system (like inside a 50L keg). Does anyone know how many cells these contain roughly? I have read than when mixed the home vials contain 3 billion cells/ml and if that holds true for 3.2L it should mean 9.6 thousand billion cells. In 1800L of wort that is 5,333,333 cells/ml or 355,555 cells/ml/°P. If this is right this is a definitely low, but in my experience shouldn't result in such a long lag time, despite the lowered temperature. Does anyone have any advice?

John

[StonesThrow]

If you bought it directly from White Labs, it should have come with a lab sheet telling you cell count, viability, vitality, etc.

Also, what do you mean by 4-7BBL pitch? They sell 4BBL pitches, and 7BBL pitches, but I've never seen someone selling 4-7BBL pitches. Those are drastically different pitch sizes.

[johnny17]

That's what it says on the side on the container. (Actually it says 5-7 BBL) We specified a 15 BBL pitch when we ordered and received 2x2L containers that say "Pitch 5-7barrels" on each of them.

[johnny17]

I'll check to see if a lab sheet came with the shipment, thanks.

[ponysaurusbrew]

Also worth noting that O2 will come out of the wort quickly, so while your O2 levels may have been spot on at the time you dosed & measured it, if the glycol issue had the beer on the cold side, and the yeast was cold, it may not have been awake soon enough to absorb what it needed for a perfect fermentation.

Also curious about the 5-7 barrel question. Wyeast doesn't offer ranges like that....

[StonesThrow]

I see now what you're talking about with the 5-7BBL range. That is just saying that the 2L bottle is for pitches ranging 5-7BBL. There should have been a white sticker put on the bottle telling you the size of the actual pitch.

[jwalts]

From a conversation I had with a White Labs employee a few years ago, I assume that each "pitchable barrel" contains about 525 billion cells. White Labs claims the cell counts are sufficient on a per-volume basis because their cultures will be far more microbiologically pure than repitched slurries, which I don't dispute, but I also don't believe the cell counts are enough to maintain flavor profiles and fermentation speeds. I hear things like "first generation fermentations are always lousy" from brewers all the time, and that's not good. I order yeast based on the same total cell targets I use for repitched slurries, and my first generation fermentations are very reliable (the only difference from repitches is about 12 extra hours of lag time). However, it's expensive. If I had the right size equipment or low enough FV temperature probes, I would definitely propagate. For 15-bbl of 15P wort and a "15-bbl pitchable" pitch, I'd start with around 60 gallons of oxygenated 9P wort or about 35 gallons of 9P wort with continuous oxygenation.

Joe

[johnny17]

I got some info back from White Labs today and it looks like it was about 320 billion per barrel they gave us. As you said, they claimed the increased viability/vitality of their pure pitches meant that normal pitching rates need not be followed. Regardless, I am unimpressed with this cell count in a 15 bbl batch of moderate gravity wort so we rigged up a yeast propping system today and will probably order bigger pitches in the future to be propped before brew day. Under pitching is not the way I like to roll.

[BMan1113VR]

I have read than when mixed the home vials contain 3 billion cells/ml and if that holds true for 3.2L it should mean 9.6 thousand billion cells.

I'd be shocked if the homebrew vials had anywhere close to 3billion cells/ml...maybe 3billion in the entire vial. 3x10^9/ml is pretty thick slurry!

[a10t2]

I got some info back from White Labs today and it looks like it was about 320 billion per barrel they gave us.

Is that their target pitching rate? That's crazy low… Around 2.5 million/mL if my math is right. I order from BSI and I know their target is 7 million/mL. I personally think even that is a little low for average-gravity ales.

I'd be shocked if the homebrew vials had anywhere close to 3billion cells/ml...maybe 3billion in the entire vial. 3x10^9/ml is pretty thick slurry!

3 billion/mL is about right for slurry that's been stored cold. The total cell count in the vials is supposed to be 100 billion.

[soia1138]

The homebrew vials are typically from 70 to 100 billion per 35ml vial. I can tell you first hand that the supplied 1600ml pitch for a 7 bbl batch from WL is plenty.

[BMan1113VR]

The homebrew vials are typically from 70 to 100 billion per 35ml vial. I can tell you first hand that the supplied 1600ml pitch for a 7 bbl batch from WL is plenty.

You have been luckier than we have been. We typically grow all of our yeast up from slants, but occasionally buy white labs pitchables for some beers on our 3bbl pilot system. We do daily cell counts and viability readings on all 22 FVs, as well as cc/viability on all yeast we are about to pitch, as well as fermentor readings after pitch. The pitchables usually have less than half of the yeast needed to pitch a moderate strength beer at 750k/ml/*p (and sometimes a good amount less than that).
One of the most recent times we received a pitchable (7bbl) for a 3bbl pilot batch, and the FV reading after pitch/knockout was about 4.5x10^6/ml (about half of what we would like to see for a 12*p beer).

That said, the pitchables generally have very good viability, healthy looking yeast, and usually preform well other than long lag times.

[soia1138]

It has nothing to do with luck. The good folks at White Labs put a lot of research into what they do. We trust of they say the cell count is adequate that it will be, and it has been. We have since grown some strains from a slant as well and also do props from a couple of homebrew vials on blended strains. The 750k/ml/P has always been the goal, as far as the information I have for repitching. As we most things in brewing it's also dependent on your process and what you hope to get out of a particular pitch, ie "under" pitch for nice belgian character vs slightly "over" pitching a strain for a much cleaner ferment.

[yeesthavesta]

Endemic to strain

WLP 090 has always been problematic for me. We've run it in a variety of geometries, volumes, aerations, and temps, and in every scenario, it has preformed poorly. Both breweries I've worked at since this strain became available have tried, unsuccessfully, to establish this strain as a primary engine. Same symptoms: excruciating lag, disappointing terminals. That said, the guy down the street from me makes reliable use of it. When pressed several years ago, the WL technicians grudgingly told us that this strain has been deployed with mixed results. With a little love, you can get 001 to run as strongly as they claim 090 does.

Best of luck!