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  • Chiller PVC piping

    Hi all,

    Can anyone with experience running schedule 80 PVC weigh in? We have a 3bbl brewhouse and installing a new chiller. I've done a ton of research online and with brewer friends. Schedule 80 is standard, and I get that insulation is best. But my question:
    Has anyone found a "standard" insulation better or worse for this application? I know you can spend a fortune on shop fabricated, insulation joints. But is it worth it? Some breweries I see don't have insulated joints at all.

    Thanks for any and all help!

    Cheers!

  • #2
    When it comes to insulation you do need to make sure you're getting closed cell insulation - otherwise condensation can build up in the insulation itself and cause a lot of problems.

    As for corners and fittings - you can cut those pieces yourself from straight insulation tubes - the box usually has an angle guide with what you need to do on it. Its not a big deal in terms of heat gain to have the fittings insulated, but do expect those areas to drip with condensation.
    Manuel

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    • #3
      Closed cell insulation is a must. Additionally, the insulation must be as nearly air-tight as possible. Saturated brewery air entering the insulation results in nasty, black snottites of bacterial/fungal mats leaking from the insulation at low points--not pretty, not sanitary.
      Timm Turrentine

      Brewerywright,
      Terminal Gravity Brewing,
      Enterprise. Oregon.

      Comment


      • #4
        Yeah. We cut and fit Armaflex for our 2" mains. Get some wide black vinyl tape for the joints. Get a brand new box cutter, or sharpen the hell out of a fillet knife. Cut to fit.

        The drops just have that 1" black foam pipe insulation you can get at any hardware store. That stuff sucks, get something better.
        Russell Everett
        Co-Founder / Head Brewer
        Bainbridge Island Brewing
        Bainbridge Island, WA

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        • #5
          Sch 40

          Schedule 40 is plenty adequate for this job.
          Warren Turner
          Industrial Engineering Technician
          HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
          Moab Brewery
          The Thought Police are Attempting to Suppress Free Speech and Sugar coat everything. This is both Cowardice and Treason given to their own kind.

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          • #6
            we did ours in PEX for our 3BBL, worked like a charm, easy to work with and excellent with temp swings.

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            • #7
              Pex Sizing

              When doing this in pex what size are you using for the main line and drops?
              Thanks

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              • #8
                Thank you everyone for the great feedback. A relief to know that we have reasonable options! Bigger relief that so many different systems are working well.

                Cheers!

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Starcat View Post
                  Schedule 40 is plenty adequate for this job.
                  I disagree on schedule 40.

                  From reading the forum here it seems people have had trouble with schedule 40 become brittle and causing leaks.

                  I know from personal experience, we lost 300+ gallons worth of glycol (our entire system) overnight from a schedule 40 reducer that had just been installed and at some point over the weekend cracked. Now, it was touching metal, which was a rookie mistake. But I still would not risk it. Worth paying a little extra for schedule 80 (which we used for our supply and return headers, with pex dropping down from the PVC to he tanks).

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                  • #10
                    I've been running with sch 40 for over a year now. I just added a new feed a month ago and everything seemed fine when I cut into it to add the new fittings. That being said l will upgrade to something better when this fails. The reason for starting with the 40 was cost savings. My entire glycol plumbing was less than $300 and I'm only risking about 5 gallons of glycol
                    Prost!
                    Eric Brandjes
                    Cole Street Brewery
                    Enumclaw, WA

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      A few things to keep in mind:

                      PVC is not the ideal solution. It does get brittle over time, and there will be some joints that you can't twist as you glue them--necessary for getting a good seal--so you may have some leaks. Our entire system is sch 80 PVC, and we have a couple of buckets hanging under small, persistent leaks.

                      Definitely use sch 80 if you go with PVC.

                      When interfacing the PVC to metal, never use a male metal threaded fitting into a female PVC fitting. At the best, you'll have leaks, but more likely, the PVC fittings will crack or break due to the difference in COE between the two materials. Always thread a female metal fitting over a male PVC fitting (our local supplier doesn't even sell female fittings in sch 80 for this reason).

                      Use the best commercial grade, sch 80, PVC glue you can get--we used Weld-On 711 Industrial. Use plenty of cleaner/primer, and scrub every glue surface of every joint with maroon ScotchBrite pads until it's dull before priming. You generally get one shot at this, so make it the best you can.

                      Get some really good contact adhesive (rubber cement) for the insulation--we use Armaflex 520. Buy plenty of disposable brushes and gloves, and expect to get glue all over the place. Follow the instructions on the glue, and you'll get much tighter joints than using tape.

                      Buying big cans of the glues may seem to make sense money-wise, but if you buy more than you can use within a few days after opening, you'll probably be throwing most of it away, or getting compromised joints from old glue. PVC glue is shot if it's much thicker than pancake syrup.

                      Good luck and have fun--
                      Last edited by TGTimm; 02-27-2015, 10:42 AM.
                      Timm Turrentine

                      Brewerywright,
                      Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                      Enterprise. Oregon.

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                      • #12
                        Hi,
                        I have said this so many times before but I will say it again PVC have a operating range from 32F to 140F. Normally you run your glycol below 32F.
                        Also PVC is not compatible with propylen glycol. Glycol is a potential ESC agent. Environmental Stress Cracking (ESC) is a mechanism by which an incompatible chemical achieves an extremely localized weakening at the surface of the material which permits propagation of a crack. ESC is dependent on both the precence of the incompatible chemical and mechanical stress (like water hammers from a valve closing and so on) Therefore it may occur in some installtions or certan part of the system while you can be lucky and have less problems in other areas
                        You can instead install COOL-FIT ABS for just a little more money, it have a operating range from -40F to 140F and is compatible with propylene glycol

                        Here is a link to a video that shows how the two material behaves at 23F https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D8C_gZls6v8 Please take a look and you will understand why we recommend you to use the ABS material instead of the PVC.

                        COOL-FIT ABS is un-insulated but you can buy it with 1" Armaflex insulation or 1 1/2" Armaflex Insulation and it is then called COOL-FIT ABS Lite
                        The most common system in breweries is of course the COOL-FIT ABS Plus piping system that is mainteneance free and is has a high density, closed cell polyurethane insulation and a thick PE jacket but this one will of course cost more. This system can also be washed with chemical and with a power washer.

                        Georg Fischer have produced PVC piping systems for over 60 years and we are today the biggest producer of PVC piping systems in the world.
                        We also invented the gap filling solvent cement for PVC.
                        We today produce over 35 different plastic piping systems and we have production facilities all over th world
                        The COOL-FIT line of piping systems was especially developed for cold fluids with an temperature below 32F like glycols and brines.

                        Don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions.

                        Dan Strömberg
                        Cooling Market Segment Manager
                        Georg Fischer LLC
                        Phone: +1 714 368 4196
                        Fax: +1 714 368 4197
                        Mobile: +1 951 642 2339
                        Dan.Stromberg@georgfischer.com

                        GF Piping Systems
                        9271 Jeronimo Rd., Irvine, CA. 92618
                        United States
                        GF Piping Systems is the leading flow solutions provider across the world. We enable the safe and sustainable transport of fluids. Our business is driven by maintaining industry-leading sustainability levels, innovating through digitally enabled solutions, and investing in a culture built on performance, learning, and caring.

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                        • #13
                          Dan -
                          I would really love to see an apples to apples cost comparison with schedule 80 and cool-fit (uninsulated). I tried to price it out when we were doing our initial installation, and the schedule 80 was less than half the cost of the equivalent cool-fit. IMHO, that's not 'just a little bit more'. I was fed the same line when we were pricing it, and it just wasn't the case. Maybe if you were buying it from Home Depot it would only be 50% more, but if you find out who your local plumbing supply house is, they would be happy to sell you everything you need, and ours keeps any sort of schedule 80 fitting you could ever want in stock. We spent about $1500 on schedule 80 (including insulation), and the cool-fit installation was over $3000 (sans insulation).

                          We've had Schedule 80 headers with pex running to the tanks for the last 3 years without any issues, other than 2-3 places with some drips (doesn't get any better or worse, just required some small buckets sitting under those drips).

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                          • #14
                            I went with the uninsulated ABS pipe for our headers and insulated it with armaflex. Then 1" copper drops to our fermenters. I really worried about a ladder being leaned up against a tank and shattering a drop, so that's why I chose copper.

                            You really have to think about the true costs of having a pipe break and losing all your glycol. Do you have a drum of glycol on hand in case you lost your whole reservoir? That's a $1000 bucks there. Then the cost of probably not being able to package for a day or two because your brite tanks are too warm, not to mention having to dump a couple batches because the fermentation got too hot.

                            We have a float switch in our glycol reservoir, that shuts off the circulation pump if the reservoir level drops. If we did have a pipe burst, we'd lose some glycol but not the entire reservoir.
                            Linus Hall
                            Yazoo Brewing
                            Nashville, TN
                            www.yazoobrew.com

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Doing this today.....

                              I'm replacing a 10-year-old, cream-colored schedule 40 PVC glycol distribution system with the grey schedule 80 PVC. It works hard in the tropics. Sure the old stuff is brittle. But no leaks in 10 years. And I'm progressive enough to know that it needs replacing. So, I'll spend the $500 to replace the entire system every 10 years. Or maybe longer now that it's schedule 80.... If I had infinite money, I'd do it differently. But this works well for me. Time after time. And yes, I do have replacement glycol on hand. It can be done. But it has to be done properly. No it's not ideal. But I can live with the consequences.
                              Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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