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barleyfreak
05-06-2015, 10:40 PM
What is the difference between them, for example, with Acid #5, other than one uses far more of the chemical than the other. Can't find anything on the forum or Five Star's site that explains when to use which. I've been following every PBW loop with an acid wash but think I might be wasting $ on chems.

soia1138
05-07-2015, 05:50 AM
From what I understand they use the term acid rinse on saniclean to make a distinction between that and acid#5 or acid#6. Saniclean is the same as Star San but at the time of it's release it was far too expensive to have it labeled as a sanitizer, thus is what named Sani"clean" and called an "acid rinse". It's all a skirt around way of saying its an acid based, no rinse sanitizer.

As for following every PBW cycle with acid#5, I used to on the fermentors but now I use PBW only then follow by a water rinse then a Saniclean "rinse" prior to receiving wort. Every 5 or so turns of a fermentor I will add the acid cycle in to kept beer stone down and maintain passivation. Once a year on every tank I will do a full passivate (increased acid concentration and let fully air dry).

Listen here at 55minutes in, 1:18(specifically for comments on Saniclean) http://www.thebrewingnetwork.com/shows/The-Sunday-Session/The-Sunday-Session-03-19-06-Sanitation-w/-Charlie-Talley

patbrewer
05-07-2015, 05:54 AM
My understanding on acid is use acid#5 after caustic/alkaline to both remove mineral build up, beer-stone etc.., and to insure the caustic is neutralized. It is also what you would in the passivation of stainless. The acid#6 has a detergent built in, similar to XPuma from Birko and is intended for use in CO2 environment as the sole cleaner. It will function in the same manner as #5, but as you said, you'd be wasting dollars. Also, those not using 5Star, Acid#5 is basically Nitric-Phos, what other providers would sell as there most basic acid, while Acid#6 is a Phos-Nitric blend with a detergent, what other providers sell as a "Detergent Acid Wash"

Oh, yeah, "acid rinse" as Soia said, 5Stars way of saying no-rinse whit out saying it. Acid#5, and #6 are very different than Saniclean and there use is not interchangeable. The acids are cleaning agents and the "sanitizer" is just that, a sanitizer.

Cheers

Junkyard
05-07-2015, 06:18 AM
Birko has the same chemicals with a diff name and correct me if I'm wrong but I'm pretty sure they say to do the acid wash before the pbw.

barleyfreak
05-07-2015, 11:17 AM
Five Star's general use instructions for Acid #5:

Acid Rinse: Drain the alkali wash burst rinse with warm water. Make a
solution of 1 oz. ACID CLEANER #5 in every 10 gallons of water used.
Circulate this solution for 15 minutes at 50-140 F. Drain the system
and rinse with potable water. Just prior to reuse sanitize according
to the local health codes.

and this,

Acid Wash: Clean equipment with suitable alkali to produce acceptable soil removal. Drain
the alkali wash burst rinse with warm water. Make a solution using 1oz. of ACID CLEANER #5
in each gallon of water used. Circulate this solution for 15 minutes at a temperature of 50-140
F. Drain and rinse with potable water. (The use of all cleaning compounds must be followed by
a potable water rinse.) Just prior to reuse sanitize according to local health standards

Both follow alkali wash, but neither says what the difference is. Their re-passivation instructions are the same as teh wash except at 120 degrees, for 30 minutes, and air dry. Still don't know what the difference with this one product is -- rinse vs wash.

Don't use saniclean or starsan on tanks. PAA instead.

soia1138
05-07-2015, 11:27 AM
The difference is the concentration, 1oz to 10gal vs 1oz to 1gal. My assumption is that its a light concentration only to neutralize the PBW. Try this in a sink. Put your hands in a PBW solution, they come out really slick, now rinse them with water. Still slick. Now put them right into a saniclean solution, instantly not slick. This is my guess and only a guess, but calling Five Star would be the thing to do.

barleyfreak
05-14-2015, 02:59 PM
Just talked with Five Star to clarify. Using the Acid Rinse on a regular basis will prevent the buildup of beerstone. Using the Acid Wash is when beerstone has already reared its ugly head. Also, to re-passivate.

So I had been using the Wash ratio after every PBW run. My tanks look great, but I was using way too much. The Rinse ratio should be more than enough if I am using it after every alkali wash.

soia1138
05-14-2015, 03:13 PM
Makes perfect sense, though from a time standpoint I find its easier just follow PBW with a wash concentration after a couple two three turns of the tank and not use acid everytime. As for the passivation, they have a specific dosage that is separate from both the wash and rinse that is at a much higher concentration. It's right on the bottle, the only part of that not to follow is they say not to rinse. You should always rinse acid off the tank, many people have posted pictures of what the tanks looked like after acid washing with no rinse to follow. It wasn't good. Passivation is simply getting the surface completely clean then allowing it to air dry. The air dry is where the passivation occurs, oxygen reacting with the clean stainless surface.