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mrbeerin
11-18-2017, 10:55 PM
Hey guys !
I know there are number of posts on this but just getting it a little more detailed if possible.
Making sure if my time and temperature works.

Fermentor :
Hot/Cold Rinse.. more of a wash
Caustic rinse at 75-80c(167-180F) for 20-30 min
Hot Rinse to remove caustic for 10 min till neutral
Cold peroxy rinse for 20 min
done!

I've heard various cycles.

My question would also be is the temperature of the caustic fine ? Does it affect the tanks in any way( SS 304 ) .

Cheers !

GlacierBrewing
11-19-2017, 08:21 AM
Hey guys !
I know there are number of posts on this but just getting it a little more detailed if possible.
Making sure if my time and temperature works.

Fermentor :
Hot/Cold Rinse.. more of a wash
Caustic rinse at 75-80c(167-180F) for 20-30 min
Hot Rinse to remove caustic for 10 min till neutral
Cold peroxy rinse for 20 min
done!

I've heard various cycles.

My question would also be is the temperature of the caustic fine ? Does it affect the tanks in any way( SS 304 ) .

Cheers !

Howdy,
I suggest you start with a conversation with your chemical supplier. The temperatures of the hot liquor mixed with the cleaning chemicals is critical for max effectiveness. Each diffferent chemical companies proprietary product seems to have its own operating temperature range.
Depending on the products composition, your hot rinse time might be a bit long but, again, check with your supplier.

Prost!
Dave

UnFermentable
11-20-2017, 02:54 AM
This looks like the typical cycle to me, however caustic rinse should be caustic cycle, and cold peroxy rinse should be cycle. (I am assuming by peroxy you mean peracetic acid with hydrogen peroxide added). PAA would be a separate sanitizer step and would not technically be CIP, but rather SIP. I would not recommend peroxide only, in general. I would focus your rinse more on water volume than amount of time. Especially since good water is a little less available here. More short rinses tend to be more effective than one longer rinse. I highly suggest getting some cheap pH strips and testing your rinse water to see if it is neutral. Then you've rinsed long enough. Your temperature for caustic is just fine at 75-80*C with the 80 end being more effective (assuming you're using sodium hydroxide). Watch the temp if you run anything chlorinated. I choose not too. Think of it as 4 main factors, Time, Temperature, Concentration, and Mechanical Action. Short on one, go longer on the others.

Dave is right and you should consult with the chem supplier, however I doubt you will find anyone here who actually knows effective methods for a brewery. They probably pour caustic in flip-flops.

Usually I would suggest 2-3% caustic solution, depending on soil loads. If it's really bad, you may want to run a quick 1% solution to loosen bulk solids, drain and then run a 2-3% for the 20-30 mins. PAA I always aim for a minimum of 160-185 ppm of Peracetic content, but some would add more.

I would run a strong Nitric/Phosphoric blend at least quarterly to keep your stainless passivated. You can also use citric acid. Concentrations depend on the chemical, temperature, and time you plan to run the cycle. Let it air dry as the oxygen in the air binds with the chromium in the stainless making the shiny chromium-oxide layer that is the protective surface of the stainless steel.

I like a more unconventional method when dealing with stubborn protein build up. I will run a Nirtic/Phos blend, drain, no rinse, straight to caustic (sodium hydroxide). That usually loosens the most stubborn protein deposits and allows me to spray/wipe off the buildup without much effort. I then do a final hot rinse, and it looks like shiny new stainless.

mrbeerin
11-20-2017, 11:00 PM
This looks like the typical cycle to me, however caustic rinse should be caustic cycle, and cold peroxy rinse should be cycle. (I am assuming by peroxy you mean peracetic acid with hydrogen peroxide added). PAA would be a separate sanitizer step and would not technically be CIP, but rather SIP. I would not recommend peroxide only, in general. I would focus your rinse more on water volume than amount of time. Especially since good water is a little less available here. More short rinses tend to be more effective than one longer rinse. I highly suggest getting some cheap pH strips and testing your rinse water to see if it is neutral. Then you've rinsed long enough. Your temperature for caustic is just fine at 75-80*C with the 80 end being more effective (assuming you're using sodium hydroxide). Watch the temp if you run anything chlorinated. I choose not too. Think of it as 4 main factors, Time, Temperature, Concentration, and Mechanical Action. Short on one, go longer on the others.

Dave is right and you should consult with the chem supplier, however I doubt you will find anyone here who actually knows effective methods for a brewery. They probably pour caustic in flip-flops.

Usually I would suggest 2-3% caustic solution, depending on soil loads. If it's really bad, you may want to run a quick 1% solution to loosen bulk solids, drain and then run a 2-3% for the 20-30 mins. PAA I always aim for a minimum of 160-185 ppm of Peracetic content, but some would add more.

I would run a strong Nitric/Phosphoric blend at least quarterly to keep your stainless passivated. You can also use citric acid. Concentrations depend on the chemical, temperature, and time you plan to run the cycle. Let it air dry as the oxygen in the air binds with the chromium in the stainless making the shiny chromium-oxide layer that is the protective surface of the stainless steel.

I like a more unconventional method when dealing with stubborn protein build up. I will run a Nirtic/Phos blend, drain, no rinse, straight to caustic (sodium hydroxide). That usually loosens the most stubborn protein deposits and allows me to spray/wipe off the buildup without much effort. I then do a final hot rinse, and it looks like shiny new stainless.

hey ! thanks Unfermented !
"They probably pour caustic in flip-flops." hahah
yeah I agree with the water volume. Was mainly concerned about the temperature. I guess im good to go. :)
Ill probably do a passivation cycle soon!
cheers !

dick murton
11-25-2017, 04:55 AM
In general, I agree with all of the previous comments

I personally would not bother cleaning FVs as high as 80 C, but at 60 to 65 C. Why? Because it doesn't actually work so much more effectively that you can reduce the time or concentration by a huge amount with FV soiling (brewhouse / kettle soiling is often greater so will be different), and you spend a lot of money heating up by that additional 15 - 20 deg C. Then you have the risks associated with explosive expansion of the gas in the FV when the hot detergent hits the vessel, and subsequently the implosion risk when you follow up with cold water rinse. I realise the difference in expansion / implosion at 65 C is not that great compared to 80 C, but every little helps - particularly if there are any leaks of caustic.

So, if you are going to hot clean, make damned sure your antivac valves and pressure relief valves are large enough, work efficiently and are maintained regularly.

Again, my experience of big (and here I am talking up to 5,000 hl FVs hot caustic cleaned, is that 1.5 % for 20 minutes is fine. However, as with all these things, I suggest you start out slightly higher at say 2 %, and then look at the inside of the vessel after 5, 10, 15, 20, 30 minutes recirc, and see if you can really tell the difference after even 10 minutes. However, at 10 minutes, they make look pretty good, but there is likely to be some virtually invisible soil left, so the extra 20 minutes gives that final "polish". After hot caustic, the tank will be virtually sterile, so providing your rinse water is potable quality, then you shouldn't need extremely high levels of sanitiser (higher than those suggested).

Don't forget to regularly check caustic and carbonate levels if you are reclaiming the detergent - carbonate is virtually useless as a detergent. If your carbonate level exceeds the caustic level, dump it and remake.

A tem minute sacrificial prewash with caustic, recirculated around the FV only (the only time I use this route for detergent given a suitable system) followed by a ten minute reclaimed detergent cycle works well, and keeps the level of carbonate in the reclaim detergent down to virtually nothing (and the soil entrained in the detergent).

What's wrong with volumetric flip flops??!!!