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Should I care about used equipment?

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  • Should I care about used equipment?

    Okay, so I scour probrewer for used equipment, and I've viewed some equipment that haven't been broadly publicized. But nothing is impressing me just yet.

    I don't know if used equipment is really worth it.

    My thought process:

    -- Tons of people are looking for used equipment, hoping for that amazing deal.

    -- Few will find such a deal.

    -- Most will end up bidding for stuff that's either piled up in a warehouse or needs decommissioning, both of which are expensive. The more bids, the more you pay.

    -- the whole caveat emperor thing...you don't really know if you're getting quality stuff.

    -- used equipment means you don't get any installation assistance

    -- perhaps it's best to bag the quest and buy a new 7,10, 15 bbl whatever system.

    I'm thinking that the quest for used equipment is pretty overrated -- that it's more about the hunt than reality.

    Anyone want to challenge my thought process and conclusion? Is it often better to buy new?

    (And does anyone have a used 15 - 20 bbl system for sale? )

    TIA.

  • #2
    Response

    Thanks for sharing your thoughts, because it helps me formulate a response.

    If you were a mechanical type, who had expertise in refurbishing, dismantling, assembly, electricals etc and you evaluated a machine or say a vehicle, using your expertise - you would know a good deal when you saw one. You would have the ability and expertise to actualize your objectives from the purchase.

    If you were a building contractor, with expertise and a team of people to convert a building that appeared doomed and run down to the lay person, you could get a steal on a building and make it worth a lot more than you paid for it, with your expertise.

    It sounds like you don't have the expertise and ability to evaluate and determine a good deal on used equipment. You may also not have the ability to actualize your objectives with used equipment.

    It may be helpful to find someone who knows this stuff, but does not sell equipment, to join you as a team member. The person should be honest to a fault. The person should be resourceful and capable in their ability to turn used equipment into actual savings and benefits. The person should have proven experience and references (other owners and breweries) that they can take you to visit and speak with.

    It is true that not all used equipment is worth looking at. Some might just not work well due to sizing, integration concerns, dismantling costs etc. However, if you had all the money in the world and a huge stainless steel edifice, you could wind up like some people who spend a lot of money on a brewing system with bells and whistles and then have to sell it all to used equipment dealers because there was nothing left in the tank to fuel the business of beer...

    What do you think?

    Comment


    • #3
      I think you're right about a number of things...particularly that I'm not a mechanical genius. Very astute of you -- and somewhat humbling for me in this here forum.

      I am in the process of bringing on a brewer or two who can assess these things much better than me. In general, I just wonder if brewery owners / brewers find that the chase (seeking used equipment) is a lot more exciting than reality (tons of competition for equipment that might be easier and better to buy new).

      Thank you for the valuable feedback!

      Comment


      • #4
        -- Tons of people are looking for used equipment, hoping for that amazing deal.
        Yes, but those same tons of people may not yet have their financing lined up, or may just be trolling for the "big score".

        -- Few will find such a deal.
        True, but when you consider the cost of new vs. used, used is generally the best deal as long as the system has been maintained properly.

        -- Most will end up bidding for stuff that's either piled up in a warehouse or needs decommissioning, both of which are expensive. The more bids, the more you pay.
        Be prepared to wait it out until you find something close to what you need. Be prepared to be flexible, too. The equipment I bought was warehoused, but that doesn't mean it was difficult - the buyer, and the dealer were more than helpful given it was my first time purchasing.

        -- the whole caveat emperor thing...you don't really know if you're getting quality stuff.
        Actually, if you brew for a living, you should. A good brewer should know the difference between a NBS, Specific, JVNW, etc.

        -- used equipment means you don't get any installation assistance
        That's part of the fun! It helps to have some pictures, too. For what you save on the initial cost, you could hire a consultant.

        -- perhaps it's best to bag the quest and buy a new 7,10, 15 bbl whatever system.
        Hey, if you're happy shelling out 275K new vs. 75K used for a comparable system, that's you. Let us know when you run out of capital so we can get a big deal on your system (tongue planted firmly in cheek).

        A good recent example or two would be the sweet looking decoction systems that have been popping up recently. Go try to buy one new for less than a small carribean island. There's been a few recently that were reasonably priced, and would outfit a small craft brewery nicely and still leave them with enough to advertise that they're brewing.

        Comment


        • #5
          From my perspective, I needed to buy used equipment because I couldn't afford new equipment. It wasn't about finding the amazing deal, it was about either opening up a brewery (with used equipment) or not at all. The price of stainless is insane right now, and is only getting higher. With the price of everything else going into beer rising, I felt I needed to be as economical as possible in order to make my brewery a viable business.

          I've found used equipment that will work well for my purposes. It isn't as pretty or efficient as a new system, but it'll do. I agree with you though, it is difficult to find used equipment right now as craft brewing is growing right now.

          Comment


          • #6
            used.. the way to go for me also

            I agree, If it werent for used equipment I would have not been able to open the doors. Our system is a mix match of stuff from converted grundy's for fermenters to a unefficient brewhouse. But the equipment works and the final product is just what we are looking for. I also think this has given us the capital to open the doors and have a great atmosphere for people to enjoy the beer. Now we are moving forward and slowly starting to upgrade equipment as we go. Just my thought's (its what worked for us)...

            Kyle

            Comment


            • #7
              If it means anything...I've see alot of bright, shining, new equipment sitting in
              now defunct brewpubs.(Hop's, Hopper's, Saint Sebastiaan, etc).
              It's the brewer that makes the difference, not the equipment. Work with what you can find at a reasonable price and adapt it to your needs.

              Bob
              Saint Somewhere Brewing
              Tarpon Springs FL

              Comment


              • #8
                There is little quality used equipment that sticks around for long now - most people looking to buy have contacted the equipment brokers and sometimes the equipment doesn't even get posted online before it is sold. If you have cash ready, call up some of the equipment brokers here and tell them that you are ready to buy.

                We got a quality used system in 2002 that saved us probably $200K over new. We would not have even been able to get open unless we found that deal. Since then, we have pretty much had to buy new fermenters - when you need to grow, the used equipment isn't there. The surest way to find a great deal on a used fermenter that is exactly what you are looking for, is to put a deposit down on a new one!
                Linus Hall
                Yazoo Brewing
                Nashville, TN
                www.yazoobrew.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  It seems to me that most brewery equipment is relatively simple and it is pretty easy to determine if it is up to snuff. Exceptions would include Boilers and Kettles where it is harder to access the integrity of the jackets or boiler tubes without firing it up. If you can do a bit of research and establish the history of the equipment you will be much better off. I have seen more than a few fancy (decotion with wort recievers etc.) brewpubs open and close quickly. This equipment is a steal! Even if a system is well used, if it has been maintained and the previous owner is simply upgrading you will save a bundle. On the flip side I know of a micro that purchased a used Krones filler that required almost an entire rebuild by the Krones guys which arent cheap. But then again, a bottling line is a hell of a lot more complicated than your average micro brewhouse.
                  Big Willey
                  "You are what you is." FZ

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                  • #10
                    I have worked with several used systems. Specific was very helpful, they found the original schematics and faxed them over. They helped us through every step of the installation, which would not have been possible without them (thanks again Blaine). JVNW is a great company too, they will even come out to refurbish and install a used JVNW system, although I don't know if you would actually be saving money by the time you pay for all of that.

                    I would suggest if you are looking into a used system, call the manufacturer of the equipment and see what info you can get on that system. If you know who it was originally sold to, i am sure they can give you the vitals on it. Chances are they will be selling you some sort of replacement parts anyway.

                    Jeff Byrne
                    Jeff Byrne

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Save money where you can

                      well, any way you can save money in the begining leads to a faster return on investment. Make friends with welders, electricians, and plumbers, get some books and learn what you can. Most of this stuff isn't rocket science. As my contractor friend says any job he bids is 1/3 materials and 2/3 labor so anything you do yourself saves money, as long as you don't totaly screw it up and have to pay a pro to fix it.

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