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ABS pipe and Propylene glycol

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  • ABS pipe and Propylene glycol

    So I am about to rebuild my chiller piping due to addition of new tanks, and the local plumbing supply place says that ABS pipe and Propylene glycol do not mix and the glycol will destroy the pipe , also that ABS pipe is not rated for pressure. looking for what is what here and if I will have to run copper as they want me to ( of course they do LOL it costs more)

    Laughing dog

  • #2
    Pvc

    I worked @ couple of breweries that used PVC to deliver glycol, they were pubs so the chiller was relatively small. I know Schedule 40 & (thicker) Schedule 80 pipe have their pressure ratings clearly labeled. Barring physical impact, I’ve never observed a PVC glycol line fail.
    Brewers enjoy working to make beer as much as drinking beer instead of working. -Harold Rudolph

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    • #3
      Our main supply and return lines are PVC, and all the lines in and out of tanks are pex, with metal fittings (don't use plastic, they tend to break).
      Paul Thomas
      Brewer
      Sockeye Brewing
      www.sockeyebrew.com

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      • #4
        Originally posted by Laughing Dog
        So I am about to rebuild my chiller piping due to addition of new tanks, and the local plumbing supply place says that ABS pipe and Propylene glycol do not mix and the glycol will destroy the pipe , also that ABS pipe is not rated for pressure. looking for what is what here and if I will have to run copper as they want me to ( of course they do LOL it costs more)

        Laughing dog
        Industrial ABS is ideal for Chilled Propylene Glycol/Water Piping and is definitely rated for the application (I think it has an operating range from -20 F to around 100 F). Although PVC is often used, the temperature rating on PVC does not go below 32 F, which is about 5-10 above a typical brewery glycol system. Perhaps your supplier was looking at the light duty black abs piping used for drainage piping?

        The expert in ABS is Dan Stromberg with Georg Fischer. He is based out of Orange County, CA. I know he is currently in Belgium, but assume he will soon be posting any support information in regards to ABS. Dan approached us two years ago to help them introduce a new Pre-insulated ABS product they were bringing to the US Market, we agreed to help them market this to the brewing and winery markets. GF Also produces the non-insulated industrial ABS Piping Material. Dan is the one to talk to- his telephone number is 951-642-2339.

        In the past we did recommend schedule 80 PVC as a lower cost alternative to copper. We quit recommending schedule 80 PVC after I had a conversation with an application engineer who worked for a PVC manufacturer, he told me he couldn't recommend and wouldn't use PVC for glycol piping. I searched all over the internet to find anything that OK'ed PVC for glycol applications, I wasn't able to find anything.

        I know there are many many breweries out there with glycol lines ran in PVC, many have served well but many have failed. I have heard of people using the PEX tubing, but have only read about it here and can't recommend either way on this.

        Good Luck,

        Jim

        Pro Refrigeration Inc.

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        • #5
          Link to product mentioned above

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          • #6
            Pex

            Our main supply and return lines are PVC, and all the lines in and out of tanks are pex, with metal fittings (don't use plastic, they tend to break).
            pbutlert,

            I have heard of breakage when metal fittings are used on PVC. So my questions are:

            Is the connection you make from the PVC headers to the PEX drops PVC -> PEX or is there a metal union there? Is the solenoid connected to PVC or PEX on both sides? What is the operating temperature range for PEX? In other words can it safely be used for glycol temps?

            Cheers,
            Steve

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            • #7
              We have PVC on some tanks over 10 years old with no problems. It is lighter then schedule 80 as well. That being said recently I did run some schedule 80 when running new pipe. Schedule 80 states it is rated for 693 psi at 73 degrees F. Yes it probably gets brittle at low temp but I think it can handle the pressure of a chiller. Engineers normally over enigineer 3 to 10 times over what a project needs to cover their ars. Before the advent of computers they typically over engineered 50 to 100 time what was needed. That being said if you are putting stresses on your pvc by not hanging it properly or some other outside variable yes it may break. Just my humble opinion.
              Joel Halbleib
              Partner / Zymurgist
              Hive and Barrel Meadery
              6302 Old La Grange Rd
              Crestwood, KY
              www.hiveandbarrel.com

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              • #8
                Piping systems for glycol

                Hi,
                Yes you are right you can't use the ABS that you find in you local hardware store. That ABS is formulated and designed for drains and waste lines and can not handle presssure.
                Our 205 year old company have produced plastic piping system for over 50 years. and for over 15 years we have produced a specially designed ABS piping system for glycol and brine cooling system. This system is called COOL-FIT and it comes in two versions COOL-FIT ABS (un-insulated)and COOL-FIT ABS Plus (pre-insulated). It is pressure rated for 150 psi and can be used for media temperatures from -40F to 140F. This material have 4 times higher impact resistance then PVC.
                We also produce PVC piping but you can't use that for applications under 32F.
                The COOL-FIT system is easy to install and you will get a lifespan of more than 25 years. This system also have manual valves, actuated valves and flow meters.
                We started to sell this system to breweries here in USA last year and there is about 16 breweries that use it. Totatally there are about 105 installations in North America everything from supermarkets (about 70) to roller coasters, bakeries, Wineries, Cold Storage and Dairy.
                Some rferences are Dogfish Head Craft Brewery, Highland Brewing Company, Kona Brewing company and Valley Brewing Company.

                Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions ore need more references or contact names to references.

                Best Regards,

                Dan Stromberg

                Market Segment Manager Cooling & Refrigeration

                Georg Fischer LLC
                2882 Dow Avenue
                Tustin, CA 92503

                Phone 714 368 4192
                Cellular 951 642 2339
                Fax 714 368 4193
                mail: dan.stromberg@georgfischer.com

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                • #9
                  Hi Kramling, From our 1 1/2" PVC mainline we go into a 1 1/2" valve, the solenoid, and then a metal fitting into 1" pex. We set it up so the supply splits from a metal "T" into the cone and body jackets, and then out the top. Our return lines dump into an open brink, so this is not a system under pressure. Our brink, chill tube circ. pump, and system circ. pump are all in our cooler. Hope this helps!
                  Paul Thomas
                  Brewer
                  Sockeye Brewing
                  www.sockeyebrew.com

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