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  • Alternative bittering plants

    I'm curious if anyone has ever used "hop tree" for bittering. It's other names are "swamp dogwood", "wafer ash", and "Rutacea Ptelea trifoliata". This plant is not in the Buhner book and I'm not having much luck finding a recipe or guideline for use. Fairly heavy citrus aroma. Bitter taste. Pioneers used them historically for brewing beer. If one were to brew with this plant, can one legally sell the beers? It doesn't seem that this plant is very well studied ( at least for the chemistries).

    Does anyone know about other bittering plants that are not in the Buhner book? How do these alternative bittering plants affect the legal aspects of selling beer?

    Is it time to practice brewing with alternative bittering plants and can they be sold, legally? What rules would apply? Yarrow sure makes the beers have a sort of narcotic zoning effect, would others?

    I did experiment with the hop tree and it came out unique and ok tasting, but it could always get better!!!

  • #2
    Originally posted by wildcrafter
    I'm curious if anyone has ever used "hop tree" for bittering. It's other names are "swamp dogwood", "wafer ash", and "Rutacea Ptelea trifoliata". This plant is not in the Buhner book and I'm not having much luck finding a recipe or guideline for use. Fairly heavy citrus aroma. Bitter taste. Pioneers used them historically for brewing beer. If one were to brew with this plant, can one legally sell the beers? It doesn't seem that this plant is very well studied ( at least for the chemistries).

    Does anyone know about other bittering plants that are not in the Buhner book? How do these alternative bittering plants affect the legal aspects of selling beer?

    Is it time to practice brewing with alternative bittering plants and can they be sold, legally? What rules would apply? Yarrow sure makes the beers have a sort of narcotic zoning effect, would others?

    I did experiment with the hop tree and it came out unique and ok tasting, but it could always get better!!!
    Sounds like we're on the same path! I picked up "The Homebrewer's Garden" in addition to Buhner's book. I found it to be quite information but no mention of swamp dogwood. Where did you get your hop tree material? I contact the TTB and my state DOR, they both told me that I could legally produce a "beer" with no hops in it. The one thing I'm still unclear on is if it doesn't have hops in it, is it still defined as beer. If not, do I still have to pay excise taxes on it? I would think that the use of yarrow would probably only have a mild sedative effect, very similar to hops.
    Luck to ya'
    Dave
    Glacier Brewing Company
    406-883-2595
    info@glacierbrewing.com

    "who said what now?"

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by GlacierBrewing
      I would think that the use of yarrow would probably only have a mild sedative effect, very similar to hops.
      Luck to ya'
      Dave
      Oh no no no! Yarrow and its friends have the opposite results as hops-- that is it has an excitatory effect. I have never achieved a "narcotic" effect but yes, folks get very animated on yarrow beer and not much either

      Other herb: Tobacco leaf -- beautiful plant, good for stamina. Vanilla like taste and bitter like chewing on aspen? Illegal to put in the beer according to CO D.O.R.

      So this hop tree-- do you use the bark, the root, the leaves, or the fruit?

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      • #4
        Fenugreek

        Anyone have experience using fenugreek?

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        • #5
          Fenugreek has a side effect of moving the bowels. It might provide some good bitterness, but might have other side effects.
          Due to its effects on the gastrointestinal (GI) tract, most side effects reported from using fenugreek orally are GI in nature. They include diarrhea and gas.
          Fenugreek Link -Drug Digest

          B

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          • #6
            Glad I asked!!

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            • #7
              Thanks Dave, looks like I'll have to get " The Homebrewer's Garden" also! I learned about hop tree locally and from herb books. Never found a recipe, I just had to experiment.

              My question about alternative bittering herbs is really about the inclusion of the herbs themselves. For example, if the herbal material is NOT on the EAFUS or GRAS list, are they legally ok for inclusion in beers? EAFUS (Everything Added to Food in the US) and GRAS (Generally Regarded As Safe) seem to have some push these days. Would plant materials NOT on the lists be ok as they may be under a certain percentage of the finished product ( ie- like non-organic hops in organic beers)?

              The Yarrow pale ale I made had a few folks quiet on the couch, after one beer. Careful now.

              Nestflel- I would think that fenugreek may have some anethol compounds that would inhibit the yeasties. It sure would taste like licorice! And ok, fenugreek is on the lists, but sweetroot has the same chemistries and is not on any lists- and it tastes better. Why one and not the other, I don't know.

              Some plants are on approved lists, some aren't. How do we know what's ok and what's not- these lists? Does this come down to percentages in the finished products?

              There's quite a few interesting AND medicinal plants that may work out great as alternative bittering plants for beers. Which ones CAN we work with for the purpose of SALES before we all get too excited about experimenting with different plants.

              Scotland has some real nice medicinal and herbal beers, can we brew some here in the US? For a change, how about with US native plants?

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              • #8
                Liking this thread. Made some bog myrtle, labrador tea, yarrow, mushroom and various other experimental combo beers back in the late nineties (for a major pharmaceutical company, believe it or not). Once the legal department sunk their teeth into the potential liability issues, the project died.

                Bitter flavours are nature's way of telling us that this is poison. Sometimes nature's poisons are pleasing or even us help in small quantities, sometimes not. Nature's poisons also tend to be very complex mixtures of molecules unless extracted and purified. Sometimes, their synergistic or potentiating effects with other things like medication(s) can be deadly.

                Proceed with caution.

                Think about disclaimers on your labels.

                Pax.

                Liam
                Liam McKenna
                www.yellowbellybrewery.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  Liam, you sound right on. I guess? history determines if it's ok or not. Look at what's in Chartreuse(here and there), Becherovka(here and there), and Fernet-Baranca(here and there)--etc... Many bitter herbs, and ,,, ok for sales in an alcoholic beverage. For example,

                  Fernet-Branca
                  From Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia
                  (Redirected from Fernet Branca)
                  Jump to: navigation, search

                  Fernet-Branca with ColaFernet-Branca is a popular brand of amaro produced in Milan, Italy. It is a bitter, aromatic spirit made from over 40 herbs and spices, including myrrh, rhubarb, chamomile, cardamom, aloe, and saffron, with a base of grape distilled spirits, and colored with caramel coloring. The recipe is a secret, and was created by the young Maria Scala in 1845 in Milan as a medicine.

                  [B]So which plants are ok to brew with and which aren't- who decides?[/B] I guess that's the upshot.

                  Hey Liam, I'm interested in the fermentation of herbs research that you did. Can you tell me more?

                  I say brew on and don't hurt anybody, including yourself. Nothing wrong with a little research and education. Perhaps without history, who'd even try something new or old?

                  Todd

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                  • #10
                    The BATF/TTB decides- when you file your statement of process...unless it is homebrew and not for sale.

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                    • #11
                      Originally posted by Moonlight
                      The BATF/TTB decides- when you file your statement of process...unless it is homebrew and not for sale.
                      Does the BATF/TTB have a data base of approved plants for inclusion in beer/ales etc. ? Plants of past, present, or future use? As long as there are no label health claims, which plants are ok?

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                      • #12
                        Why make it complicated or dangerous? Just go to the supermarket and get some fresh ginger. Start with the recipe from the Buhner book as a guide line. The bittering properties are great, and everyone understands what ginger is. The hard part is how much to use and a standard measurement of the components that make the flavor. Supermarket ginger doesn't
                        come with an alpha acid number like hops do, but if you haven't tried any hop alternatives, ginger is the easiest first choice. Try 5 or 10 gallons as an experiment, it won't be a waste of time for sure.

                        Thanks,

                        Tom
                        ECBC

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                        • #13
                          I vaguely remember a list on line, but I don't remember how I got there. The FDA may have it, especially under EAFUS or GRAS (generally regarded as safe.) It doesn't matter if it was wildly popular in a previous century, they like to make rules and enforce them. DDT used to be widely used, and trace amounts was ok in food. Luckily that has changed.

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                          • #14
                            I contacted the TTB directly about using no hops and using some other alt. bit. plant. I was told by that agent that my brewer's notice DOES allow me to make beer without hops. She did caution me on a few of the plants I gave as examples (like mugwort, bog myrtle, wormwood, and a few others I can't remember) as they have toxic properties. One was the plant used in absinthe and since absinthe is banned in the U.S., that would be a no-no. She did not tell me of any list they are keeping of plants that are verbotin!

                            Dave
                            Last edited by GlacierBrewing; 01-10-2008, 11:46 AM. Reason: misspelling
                            Glacier Brewing Company
                            406-883-2595
                            info@glacierbrewing.com

                            "who said what now?"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Where did you get your hop tree material?

                              Wildcrafting is harvesting in the wild--like a freegan or anarchist of the wilderness. I ordered the seeds from Native Seeds of Colorado-- but we are talking a shrub so I am years away. But looked at info and picture of common hoptree and it looks like a hop hence the name. So maybe that look is all it shares with lupulo:


                              Maybe using the leaves and blossoms for flavor though the root and bark are the medicinal part. Sorry, Dave, no known hoptree in Montana (yet)

                              I found the GRAS from Health and Human Service


                              But no forbidden list yet
                              When in doubt, an herbal encyclopedia for toxic

                              And if it was used by the pioneers-- time to get historical for recipes and look through old journals and cookbooks.
                              All the fun possible.

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