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Problems washing kegs - couplers are not seating properly

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  • #1

    Problems washing kegs - couplers are not seating properly

    I'm having a weird issue while washing kegs. The keg will end up 1/3 full of liquid after a cycle. After watching it carefully it's obvious that liquid is actually going in the gas side and the keg doesn't vent at all. Depressing the handle all the way and holding it there 'solves' the issue. No other issues with these kegs; standard couplers work just fine. I'd just swap them out but the threads are different, presumably to avoid putting a coupler without a PRV on a keg for dispensing. Here are some details:

    Sankey D couplers
    Micromatic filling head couplers
    Occurs on both chinese and micromatic spears (albeit less often on micromatic spears)

    I'm currently going through a variety of ideas to try and fix the problem. One is to change out the O-rings for the probe, possibly make it a bit thicker. Another might be to grind off the stops on the coupler itself. If you have micromatic couplers, you'll know what I mean. They stop the coupler from turning more than a 1/4 turn on the keg. If I get rid of them, I might be able to get another 1/16" depth on the coupler.

    If anyone has a solution to this, it would be appreciated.

    Cheers
    Steve
    Tags: None
  • #2
    The keg should be upside down, the CIP should go up the spear spray around the inside of the keg, and return out of the gas vent. It appears from your description you have the CIP connections the wrong way round. You will always need to blow out the CIP residues using steam or compressed gas, again, gas in through the spear, and again out through the what are used for gas top pressure during dispense.
    dick

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    • #3
      I have been retro fitting my new-to-me keg washer with new couplers and hoses for that reason. The micromatic coupler o rings were sticky, and where the handle catches the stem was worn down a bit, so not getting full depression.. Liquid went in, but had a hard time exiting unless the handle was manually depressed to the fullest. Of course they were 5/8th thread rather than 7/8th - whatever regular couplers are - and so were the hoses. All new parts, and it works great with regular stainless couplers.
      David

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      • #4
        Originally posted by dick murton View Post
        The keg should be upside down, the CIP should go up the spear spray around the inside of the keg, and return out of the gas vent. It appears from your description you have the CIP connections the wrong way round. You will always need to blow out the CIP residues using steam or compressed gas, again, gas in through the spear, and again out through the what are used for gas top pressure during dispense.
        Just to be clear, this is an intermittent problem. Now that I'm thinking about it, it occurs more after an hour or so of washing than at the beginning of a washing session. The washer and connections work fine most of the time. At first this was a Chinese spear only problem but has now crept into occurring on kegs with micromatic spears as well. Spears are less than 2 years old in all cases, some of the failing Chinese spears were brand new.

        Sounds like we are having a similar problem to panadero. I'd rather use the wider bore heads. I actually found a washer that was slightly thicker than the one that was already installed and replaced it. We'll see if that helps anything on the next session. The washer I took off is about the same size as a beer nut washer but maybe 30-50% thicker.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by ColdFusion View Post
          Just to be clear, this is an intermittent problem. Now that I'm thinking about it, it occurs more after an hour or so of washing than at the beginning of a washing session. The washer and connections work fine most of the time. At first this was a Chinese spear only problem but has now crept into occurring on kegs with micromatic spears as well. Spears are less than 2 years old in all cases, some of the failing Chinese spears were brand new.

          Sounds like we are having a similar problem to panadero. I'd rather use the wider bore heads. I actually found a washer that was slightly thicker than the one that was already installed and replaced it. We'll see if that helps anything on the next session. The washer I took off is about the same size as a beer nut washer but maybe 30-50% thicker.
          What PSI air are you using to blow out the kegs after the wash cycle where it's not draining? I've found that too much pressure can cause valve problems and result in kegs not draining fully. We backed the purge pressure down on our washer and haven't had any problems since then. Just make sure you adjust cycle times so you still get a complete purge.

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          • #6
            Check the large gasket on the bottom of the coupler. There are at least two different thicknesses of these, and it sounds to me like you have a gasket that is too thin (deep?). The fact that you can get the coupler to seat fully with hand pressure seems to bear this out. We've had this problem many times due to the at least two different (but very similar--you need to see the two gaskets side by side to appreciate this) thicknesses.
            Timm Turrentine

            Brewerywright,
            Terminal Gravity Brewing,
            Enterprise. Oregon.

            Comment

            • #7
              Originally posted by TGTimm View Post
              Check the large gasket on the bottom of the coupler. There are at least two different thicknesses of these, and it sounds to me like you have a gasket that is too thin (deep?). The fact that you can get the coupler to seat fully with hand pressure seems to bear this out. We've had this problem many times due to the at least two different (but very similar--you need to see the two gaskets side by side to appreciate this) thicknesses.
              Ditto!

              Pax.

              Liam
              Liam McKenna
              www.yellowbellybrewery.com

              Comment

              • #8
                I think this is getting down to the problem. Beer nut washers seem to be 1/8" thick and we have those on a few of our couplers. These couplers are fitted with washers that are 5/32" thick but I think they would do better with something that is 3/16" thick based on the washer I managed to get on there (and seems to seal better). Anyone have a source that specifies thickness? I know I want a probe seal but getting another 5/32" thick one probably isn't going to help.

                Comment

                • #9
                  Just to be sure we're on the same page, this is the page: http://www.micromatic.com/draft-keg-...pid-7485E.html

                  The gasket I'm referring to is #9, Sanke Tap Bottom Seal, on the exploded diagram. This isn't necessarily the right part, I'm just using the diagram for clarity.

                  I just measured the two seals we use here. The seals for the Micromatic couplers are ~0.35", while the Banner coupler seals are ~0.28" (these measurements are approximate, since I'm measuring a rubber seal with calipers). Both seals are the same diameters, ID and OD, and both fit just fine on either coupler. Neither works well on the wrong coupler.
                  Timm Turrentine

                  Brewerywright,
                  Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                  Enterprise. Oregon.

                  Comment

                  • #10
                    I recently had the same issue. Only happened on certain kegs. Only every now and then. Progressively got worse. Definitely check the gaskets as stated above. What I eventually found was that the coupler itself was wearing out. By that I mean the grooves around the seal face that "lock" the coupler into the tabs on the keg had worn down to a nub. When the coupler was attached to the keg it was not pushing down enough to seat properly. If you pushed down on the handle it would seat, but when you let go it would lose its seal. Compare the wear on the coupler with another one and see if that's your problem.

                    After a few thousand cycles of being taken on and off of kegs, the metal was just worn away. Put on a new coupler and it's all good now...
                    Scott LaFollette
                    Fifty West Brewing Company
                    Cincinnati, Ohio

                    Comment

                    • #11
                      Originally posted by yap View Post
                      I recently had the same issue. Only happened on certain kegs. Only every now and then. Progressively got worse. Definitely check the gaskets as stated above. What I eventually found was that the coupler itself was wearing out. By that I mean the grooves around the seal face that "lock" the coupler into the tabs on the keg had worn down to a nub. When the coupler was attached to the keg it was not pushing down enough to seat properly. If you pushed down on the handle it would seat, but when you let go it would lose its seal. Compare the wear on the coupler with another one and see if that's your problem.

                      After a few thousand cycles of being taken on and off of kegs, the metal was just worn away. Put on a new coupler and it's all good now...
                      We have experienced the same issue recently. After swapping in a new coupler the problem kegs washed like normal. Easy fix for a confusing and annoying problem. Just make sure you don't swap on a coupler with the check ball many Micro Matic ones have.
                      Chris Davison

                      Wolf's Ridge Brewing
                      wolfsridgebrewing.com

                      Comment

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