mashing with wort

[Zucker Bee]

I heard somewhere that there was a thechnique called "double mashing" that would consists on reusing the first wort as mash liquor for a subsequent batch. Then, that second batch would be run off and sparged as usual. The result I would guess would be super malty!

I was wondering if anyone out there used that techcnique before, and if so, what I should look for. For instance, I'm worried of some enzymes activities being inhibited by the huge amout of sugar present in the brewing liquor (wort, that is in this case) in my second batch.

Any thoughts?

Zb

[drewseslu]

I've never used that technique, but a variation on it.
There is some large German word for this practice which escapes me at the moment, but when we brew 4 batches of Imperial Stout or Barleywine in a row we will save the last 7bbls or so of runnings from each batch and dough in the next mash with that wort. It helps get our gravities where we need them for those huge beers.
An alternative would be to take the first runnings of one mash and boil those while mashing in a second time and then combining them both in the kettle for a more efficient method of reaching a high gravity.
Just my 1/50th USD.

[Zucker Bee]

There is some large German word for this practice which escapes me at the moment...

Well, if the Germans did it, IT HAS be good

Interesting technique you're describing here, Dreweslu. I have a 7hl system, so I think I'll park my first running (3hl @ 23°P) from batch #1 into a vessel, then sparge the rest (4.5hl) and mash #2 onto it. Then, I'll recall my #1 wort and top it with wort#2 and boil.

Man... this is exciting! I can't wait.

BTW, I'm intending to do a Barleywine out of this.

Cheers,

Zb

[WitsEnd]

Track down a copy of the Dec 2007 issue of BYO.
There was a lot of good info in there on this method on a homebrew scale. I'm sure much of it would scale up to the commercial scale as well.

Reiterated Mashing: Multiple Mashes for Massive Brews (Dec, 2007)

[DancingCamel]

This is actually really interesting. Our mash tun is ahem...average-sized, which has prevented us from doing any really big beers (our fermenters don't have cone jackets so we can't do a 1/2 batch). To follow this through, on our first batch, we would dough in as normal for our IPA (350 kg grain bill, 200 gallons water for a 10 bbl batch) but instead of sparging and lautering, we would just run off without sparging. This should get us ~ 180 gallons @ 21 P. Then, we grain out, and dough in again with a new 350 kg of grain and the 180 gallons of wort from the first mash (+20 gallons of water). The second mash we sparge and lauter as usual.

How would I anticipate my gravity doing this? Would I take the 21 P for 180 gallons and then add that to the normal pre-boil yield we would get on the second mash (~16 P)? Taking into account that the runoff on the first mash is 180 gallons and the runoff on the second is about 350 (including the first 180), am I correct in calculating that we would wind up in the fermenter with something around 27-28 P?

Thx.

David

[MaltAlchemist]

I think you might get into some saturation problems. In sparging, the hot water is "rinsing" the color, flavor & sugar out of the grain and forming the "sweet liquor" solution that latuers out. If you "resparge" with such a high gravity solution, you may not be able to rinse out all the sugar you want from your 2nd mash-in. I recommend you mash in once, store the first runnings and mash in the second time and combine the two first runnings or try it on a pilot scale first to see if your calculations are correct. I however reuse my last runnings as mash-in water for my second batch, it has less gravity so it will absorb more of the sugars and it saves water.

MA

[Zucker Bee]

That's exactly what are doing TODAY

I'll post my brew log later, if anyone is interested

Zb

[DancingCamel]

Very interested - please post ZB.

David

[Zucker Bee]

Here it is....

This is not our standard recipe spreadsheet, I just put the basic infos in one PDF.

It was a long, but interesting day: 14hrs in the brewery. I think we will be abble to cut back 2hrs next time. We learned alt whil experimenting. The pH played yoyo on us.

It's is now fermenting like hell fire.

Enjoy,

Zb

[drewseslu]

Chinook early and Styrians late? Sounds very interesting, I'd like to try it.
Looks like a good recipe.

[Zucker Bee]

Yeah, funny indeed!

I had this huge batch of Styrian at 1,8%AA ; not very usefull at boil, but as an awsome aroma, perect for "fill in" at 20 minutes or knock of

We have a tendency here to do Belgian ales with American/W.Coast hops; why not going the opposite direction somethimes!

Zb

[drewseslu]

Southern Tier uses some Styrians late in the boil with their fantastic DIPA, so why not?

[dick murton]

Not sure there is a lot of mileage in using such strong worts for mashing in, as I would expect the high sugar concentration in the mashing liquor / wort to affect enzyme activity.

Why don't you do what is known as "parti gyling". Runoff the first worts and iitial sparge until the gravity breaks, then collect the rest in a separate vessel, sparging as normal. Treat the first worts as one brew, the second as a completely different lower gravity brew. Do this over two or three brews - no problem if the wort is kept hot, but of course, not suitable for pale lagery type beers due to colour pickup

Cheers

[Zucker Bee]

It worked out pretty well, IMHO. Haven't mashed out, so I guess I had my enzyme population.

Parti-gyle > I thought 2 boils in one day was too much work for our set up in one day, but considering we spent about 15hrs doing this, I might try it next time.

It's been maturing at 10c for a week now.
Gravity = 5,8P wich is satisfying
~10,5% abv

[nwcw2001]

Track down a copy of the Dec 2007 issue of BYO.
There was a lot of good info in there on this method on a homebrew scale. I'm sure much of it would scale up to the commercial scale as well.

Reiterated Mashing: Multiple Mashes for Massive Brews (Dec, 2007)

I have this copy if anyone needs to see it. I can scan and email.

John