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  • Foaming Caustic

    Hey-all,

    I've had some issue with my caustic cleaning cycle on our CCV's foaming in less than a few minutes under krausen heavy loads. No problem with our lagers but our ales are a pain in the butt.

    We've bought some chelating agent and that's helped, but I'm worried about head retention. What do you use?

    We bought a low-foaming caustic(missing a surfactant or two?) and that doesn't help at all. Could it be our pump? We use cold water for the caustic, could it be that?

    Kevin
    Chuckanut

  • #2
    foaming caustic

    You may find that if you hit the tank with just a small burst of caustic, let it sit for a few minutes and then hot rinse until the runoff looks pretty clean, you can remove a lot of that heavy soil load prior to running your main caustic cycle. This might help with the foaming. The foam is probably due to the caustic getting saturated with the proteins from that heavy krausen load.
    Steve Bradt
    Regional Sales Manager
    Micro-Matic Packaging Division
    Eastern United States and Canada
    sbradt@micro-matic.com
    785-766-1921

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    • #3
      Saponification: hydrolysis of lipids by caustic = soap. If you are using fresh caustic, then change brands. Shouldn't foam first time, but reuse will eventually foam.
      Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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      • #4
        I have run in to this especially with Hefeweizen. I use my everyday caustic (with dose have a small amount of low foam already added then I also have a separate supply of straight low foam additive. This way I can adjust the level based on how dirty the tank is and if a tank starts foaming up I just add a little more. For cleaning a very dirty (lots of yeast) 15BBL fermenter with a 2.3%caustic solution (1BBL total cleaning solution) 2tbsp of low foam work well.

        cheers

        jamie

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        • #5
          k

          Concur with Steve. Can also do it with just water. A lot of the Kräusen ring will come off when you hit it with a high pressure water stream. Then use the Caustic for serious stuff. Imperative, leave the empty tank under pressure until you're ready to clean it, otherwise the Kräusen will cement up as it dries.

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          • #6
            I do what Jamie does -—problem solved.

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            • #7
              Acid first...

              First off Co2, assuming you do not get it 100% vented before your caustic cycle, will begin to neutralize your caustic as soon as you start your cycle. I like to use acidic properties of Co2 to my advantage.

              Try a good hot rise and the run a mild acid cycle first before your caustic cycle. I do sometimes need to add a bit of defoamer during the acid CIP, but once complete the tank is usually 80-90% clean with only a few oz's of phos/nitric. Drain the tank and fill with your caustic solution and start CIP without rinsing. I have cut my chemical usage and cleaning time quite a bit by doing this.

              I'm no chemical engineer, but my understanding is that the PH shock does quite a bit to help cut through the rest of the gunk. I learned this, Acid->Caustic->Acid (and or Sani) years ago and just recently rediscovered its benefits. I'm now using about 1/3 the amount of caustic as i did previously and my tanks are immaculate in half the time.

              Works great on the kettle too..
              Last edited by Jephro; 09-08-2010, 01:36 PM.
              Jeff Byrne

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              • #8
                Use hot water. Most caustic cleaners are formulated for hot water(160-170f)and will foam when cold, and not clean as well. Also if you have heavy Kausen rings, a ricirculation of hot water for only 5 mins will take a lot of the cake off, dump and do your caustic cycle. Adding acid @ 1oz/gl like some mentioned will help too, but jusat water does alot. If you want o use colder water try a clorinated caustic like 5-star super CIP @ 120-140f, but that demands an acid cyle every time.
                Brewmaster, Minocqua Brewing Company
                tbriggs@minocquabrewingcompany.com
                "Your results may vary"

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by Ted Briggs
                  Use hot water. Most caustic cleaners are formulated for hot water(160-170f)and will foam when cold, and not clean as well.
                  I try to avoid hot/cold interactions when it comes to tanks. I have enough other things to worry about than pressure/vacuum issues and for the record, I have used cold caustic CIP successfully for years. I guess it depends on the product and how you use it.

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                  • #10
                    I never heard of cold caustic before! Learn something everyday.
                    So...What do you use and how do you use it?
                    Big Willey
                    "You are what you is." FZ

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                    • #11
                      Rinse

                      Added benefits to rinsing first with hot water is that it will purge your tank really well of any CO2 and pre-heat your tank so your hot caustic will stay hotter during the full CIP cycle.

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                      • #12
                        Hot Rinse CIP - I started doing this a while back and had great results.
                        --It was while i was doing Hot Water CIP i remembered the Acid First trick (it doesn't take much Acid either) hadn't thought about it helping vent the Co2 but yea.. that too.


                        Cold Caustic - Although it is not my SOP I can verify that this works with Sodium Hydroxide (Wesmar Liquid Excel 425E) I Accidently left the FV setpoint at 32°F, once i realized what i had done i inspected the tank and to my surprise the tank was just as clean as when i use hot caustic.
                        --I don't think this would work so well with a solid (powdered caustic, or chlorinated alka cleaning agent) - anybody have success with it?
                        Jeff Byrne

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                        • #13
                          PBW cold (22C) for the last five years. No problems except we need a strong acid to keep oxylate down. Works much better at colder temperatures than NaOH.
                          Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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                          • #14
                            Originally posted by gitchegumee
                            PBW cold (22C) for the last five years. No problems except we need a strong acid to keep oxylate down. Works much better at colder temperatures than NaOH.
                            Huh, who'd of thunk it... good to know.
                            Jeff Byrne

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                            • #15
                              Cold caustic simply takes a little longer to clean, and or requires higher concentration. It often takes alittle longer to rinse off - but we are not talking the difference between 5 minutes and 30 minutes here, but 5 and perhaps 8 or ten at most


                              The crucialdifference between hot and cold is that hot caustic is much better at killing off bacteria, yeasts etc, but if you followed caustic with an acid wash, particularly if a combined acid & sterilant, then this should be fine.

                              Personally, although I know caustic + hypochlorite is brilliant at removing soil, and killing bugs, it foams far more than straight formulated caustic, and having seen vessels and pipes etc fully perforated by chlorine induced corrosion, I am always wary of the mix. It needs to be at pH > 12 to be safe, and thoroughly rinsing off the plant with fresh water before hitting it with acid

                              Many European breweries are using a dilute raw caustic pre-rinse to remove the bulk of the soil, followed by acid main detergent, rather than acid followed by caustic
                              dick

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