Extract of Acidulated Malt

[jwalts]

Weyermann doesn't list extract values in its spec sheets for acidulated malt. Is that because lactobacilli consume all of the sugars during the acidification process, or because the acidity of test mashes would make it impossible to convert the starches and/or difficult to quantify (i.e. if acidulated malt is blended with base malt)? If acidulated malts do contribute sugars, do any of you know how much?

Thanks!

Joe

[GBKC]

Hello Joe,

There are no extract values for acid malt because it has no extract potential. Acid malt is used only to lower the pH of your mash. I use it for a step infusion mash for my lighter color beers. The darker beers don't need that acid malt due to the dark malts, which contribute to a lower pH. Don't use over 3% or you run the risk of your final beer having a sour malt flavor.

Prost!

James Hudec
Gordon Biersch Kansas City

[WaterEng]

I have to disagree with James on the extract of Acid Malt. Acid Malt is a regular Pils malt that has been sprayed with a lactic acid solution that was derived from a natural lactic ferment (meets reinheitsgebot). The malt is immediately dried after spraying to preserve the malt.

The sugars in the malt were not consumed in the acidification process. Therefore, a brewer can expect the same general extract performance from the acid malt as for pils malt. Possibly the maltster does not provide extract due to this product not typically occupying much of the grist percentage?

[jfulton]

I agree, the stuff has just as much potential as normal pale malt, so count on about 79% extract from it. Cmon GB!?

[GBKC]

I just got an email back from Sabine Weyermann.....

"James, You are right , acidulated is not sprayed, but soaked for 48 hrs- I have nothing to add to your ph comment!"

In short, Acid malt does not contribute to extract potential. It should only be used to lower pH. WaterEngs," a brewer can expect the same general extract performance from the acid malt as for pils malt." is incorrect.

Come On Fulton?!?!?!?!?!

[jfulton]

James and I are having a friendly argument over the subject, don't be alarmed.

Apparently it makes a difference who you buy it from.

Best Malz claims that theirs is sprayed and not soaked and does contain extract: http://www.bestmalz.de/en/malt/malt-type-acid-malt.htm

Foot in mouth about Weyermann though, I was wrong it appears. Do the lacto consume all the sugars during germination? I wouldn't think that they would be able to access the majority of the sugars... Seeds have a natural ability to keep yeast and bacteria from invading their endosperm and consuming their sugars. Is this made possible from the 48 hr. soak? What is the composition of the endosperm if there is no potential extract whatsoever in there?

[WaterEng]

Ah, this is very interesting. Soaking could have the potential to leach out starches and sugars, but I don't understand why that would be preferred. The only thing I can think is that more acidity is imbued into the grain per kg. And if they are saying there is no extract, then why would a brewer consider it over a sprayed product that has an extract potential?

I know that Weyermann has on the order of 3% acid by weight but other products are on the order of 2%. So the soaking may be the reason for the difference, but I'm not sure that its worth it. Sure sounds like a good reason to drop Weyermann Acid malt and go for another brand. Of course, the most prudent thing to do is forget acid malt entirely and add the lactic the mash needs to meet the pH goals. I do not conform to the WhinningHineygotsButt. Its a terribly outdated concept.

[jwalts]

I just did a little experiment at home: 2 oz of Weyermann acid malt mashed with 1/2 gallon of water and lautered without sparging resulted in a gravity of 2.2 P. That correlates to a coarse-grind extract potential of 82%, assuming the malt moisture was the same as its typical analysis. I chose 1/2 gallon of water because I thought its residual alkalinity (~5.06 mEq/L) would balance the malt acidity, but my mash pH was 4.0 at most (4.0 is the lowest value on my pH papers). That would've prompted a redo if I ended up with no extract - either with more water or with a blend of acid malt and pale ale malt - but I think it's safe to say that Weyermann acid malt contributes a significant amount of extract.

Joe

[dstar26t]

Working backwards to get the DBFG, this is what I got:

Assuming the grain absorbed 1 pint per pound, your 2.2P measurement was of .484375 gallons of wort (did you measure the volume?).

Converting 2.2P to SG gives 1.00857. So the 100% conversion gravity (coarse) would have been 1.0332 for 1 pound in 1 gallon.

(lbs of grain x Potential)/gallons of water = 8.57
so, (.125 x Potential)/.484375 = 8.57
Potential = 33.2 coarse

The Fine-Coarse difference of their Bohemian Pilsner malt ranges from 1-2%. Assuming then that acidulated is 1.5%, the 100% extract yield fine grind would be 1.0337 (33.2 * 1.015). Taking into account the 7% moisture they publish, that gives 78.7% FGDB.

(DBFG/100)*[(100-moisture%)/100)]*46 = 33.7, so DBFG = 78.7%

Thanks for doing the experiment! Please correct me if any of that is wrong.

[Rosie]

Man I love this forum

[jwalts]

Hey dstar,

I think you're making more work for yourself than you need to, and basing it on assumptions that don't need to be made. For example, I chose not to sparge so I wouldn't need to measure my wort volume or assume a grain retention value (which I normally assume is 0.006 bbl/lb, by the way, so you can see how depending on hard-to-measure assumptions can be a slippery slope). Because I didn't sparge, the retained wort had the same gravity as the lautered wort. In other words, the gravity simply represented a certain amount of sugar dissolved into a certain amount of water. There's no need to convert Plato to specific gravity either, since Plato and CGDB are both sugar percentages by weight.

I iterated my calculations, shown below, by changing CGDB until my gravity calculation matched my experiment:

CGDB = 82%
Overall Malt Yield: OMY = CGDB/(1-Moisture/100) = 82/(1-7/100) = 76.26%
Available Extract: EA = (OMY/100) x Wt = (76.26/100) x 0.125 = 0.095
Water Density: DWa = 8.3316 lb/gal (I measured my water volume cold)
Water Mass: MWa = DWa x Water Volume = 8.3316 x 0.5 = 4.166 lb
Wort Mass: MWo = EA + MWa = 0.095 + 4.166 = 4.26 lb
Wort Gravity: GWo = 100 x EA / MWo = 100 x 0.095 / 4.26 = 2.2 P

I think your calculations are good, but they're not necessary. Anyway, my experiment wasn't controlled enough to merit a discussion over a few percentage points worth of extract. I just wanted to find out if acid malt contributed significant amounts of acid. I think an acceptable conclusion is "replace X amount of base malt with X amount of acid malt, instead of adding acid malt to an existing grainbill, to lower your mash pH."

Joe

[jfulton]

I emailed Weyermann a while back and finally received a response from one of their lab guys. Apparently they don't list the extract because in an all acidulated congress mash, the extract reading is skewed because of the very low pH. But theoretically, calculate the fine grind (like I said), as ~80%.

Here's the email.
__________________________________________________ __________
Dear Jamie,

The extract in Weyermann® acidulated malt cannot be measured because of the low pH level in a 100% acidulated malt mash/wort.

But you can calculate with a “theoretical extract” of 80-81% at a common dosage of 0-8%.

For further questions do not hesitate to contact me.

Kind regards!


*************************************
Andreas Richter
-Quality Manager-
- Beer Sommelier & Judge at the GABF 2005-2008 & WBC 2010-

Weyermann® Specialty Malts
Brennerstr. 17-19
96052 Bamberg, Germany
phone: +49 951-932 20-22
cell phone: +49 173 6352290
fax: +49 951-932 20-922
e-mail: andreas.richter@weyermann.de
homepage: www.weyermann.de
__________________________________________________ _________

I think that settles it.