other ways to stop CO2 break out?

[fullmoonwinery]

hi all

i'm still having some problems with CO2 breaking out of suspension in the bottle filling machine, in the pressure release part of the machine as the bottle is disengaged from the fill head.

i have a pretty good temperature, about 1-2degC going into the filler surge tank. pressure in the surge tank is 2.5 to 3bar. no problem filling, its just in the pressure release a wall of foam develops in the bottle and i loose a lot of carbonation (and cider).

Philip Kahn came to visit us yesterday and he suggested that maybe the problem is the cider its self. maybe it can't hold CO2 in suspension as well as beer because it has less proteins or something?

so i was thinking, is there perhaps some kind of additive that i can add to the cider to help it hold onto the CO2 better? any ideas welcome.

thanks, steve.

[MikeJordan]

A few questions:

-What is the carbonation level of your cider?

-What sort of filling machine are you using? Operation speed?

[fullmoonwinery]

A few questions:

-What is the carbonation level of your cider?

-What sort of filling machine are you using? Operation speed?

in terms of volumes, i don't know because we don't have equipment to measure that. we are trying to get a medium carbonated cider, not gassy like champagne.

its a monoblock filling machine, running at about 1200btl/hr

when it foam a lot (not always) we run at about 1000btl/hr

i should also mention that cider is way more acidic than beer, pH is about 3.7

[fullmoonwinery]

actually i just found this thread

http://www.probrewer.com/vbulletin/s...ead.php?t=4001

maybe some of these products might help me

http://www.brewerssupplygroup.com/FoamControl.html

this looks perfect too
http://www.hydrite.com/ethanol.php
Suppressor 3110

[MikeJordan]

Hmmm...where to start...

The anti-foam is not a product intended for the problems you are experiencing. They are used to minimize foam during boil and fermentation and can increase capacity, decrease hop loss, etc....

I strongly recommend you find a way to borrow a CO2 meter as this is a fundamental piece of equipment one should consider when bottling. It is very likely that your carbonation levels are higher than you think.

Your operational speed is pretty slow....so I might guess that once the snifter is released your timing gap to the capper might be long. Does these make sense? if the snifter can be adjusted you should try this and maybe get it closer to the capper so the time duration for overfoam is minimized.

[KWLSD]

From a gas management perspective, I'd strongly agree that you need to know what your CO2 level is.

I would suspect - but am open to correction - that the more acidic pH of cider is likely to improve the stability of dissolved CO2, with regard to the latter forming weak carbonic acid.

Have you tried reducing the pressure in the surge tank? It may be that your fobbing problem is due to a large pressure change as the bottles leave the filler heads.

As MikeJordan says, using anti-foam isn't the answer; cider tends to have less foam-positive material that beer so any further reduction in its capability would possibly spoil final presentation.

[dick murton]

I don't know about the acidity helping or hindering CO2 solution, but you should be able to get 5 g / litre in solution at these temperatures and keep it there easily at about 1 bar. If you have to use 2.5 bar plus to keep it in solutions, then as already proposed it suggests that the snifting off is not slow enough, or simply there is too much CO2 in the cider to be able to keep in solution at atmospheric pressure for even a short time. If you are holding the cider in a pre-packaging tank at constant temperature and pressure, you could try reducing the pressure until you see gas breakout (though I accept this might be a touch difficult to observe.

If your bottle handling system creates a lot of vibration, then you may inadvertently be generating the gas release between filler and crowner this way.

But I have to agree, the first thing to do is to determine exactly what your CO2 is in the pre-filler storage tank, then look up a carbonation / pressure / temperature chart and probably reduce the top pressure considerably

[fullmoonwinery]

thanks for all the advise.

i have 2.5 bar in the filler surge tank because that is how it is set when i bought the machine and that is what the manufacturers said to use. but what do a bunch of Chinese welders know about beer?

what do you suggest as a filler tank pressure?

i'll look into adjusting it on my side

also, can anyone point me to a CO2 meter? i can't find one on the GW Kent website and meheen don't seem to sell small stuff and the tank manager is a bit out of my price bracket

thanks, steve

FYI, if you look at the link http://www.hydrite.com/ethanol.php at Suppressor 3110 and Patcote 376 they are listed under the heading Filling/Bottling and the description reads

Suppressor 3110:

A 10% active silicone emulsion designed to deliver foam control during the bottling and filling of beverages

Patcote® 376K:

A specialty product designed to control foam in beverages.

so i think both are worth a try if i can get some samples

[KWLSD]

I'd really caution against using antifoams, whatever the manufacturers say; that will only mask your filling problem and potentially spoil presentation.

As Dick says, you should be looking at around 1bar rather than 2.5bar.

I strongly suspect the problem is due to the level/pressure of CO2 you have immediately after fill:

During the filling process - assuming you are using 100% CO2 to pressure the filler (and perhaps also to purge the bottles pre-filling?) - you will have stability of the CO2 in solution vs. the CO2 in the tank, then in the bottle;

When the bottle comes off the filler head that equilibrium balance will be lost as the bottle is immediately exposed to atmospheric pressure only from the surrounding air (80% N2, 20% O2, ~0% CO2, approx.) so CO2 will automatically come out of solution, ie. fobbing will occur.

As others have said, this will be exacerbated by:

- a long snift-to-cap time;
- vibration;
- excess filler pressure.

It will also be true that a high filler pressure from CO2 will entrain gas bubbles in the product; these will also tend to come out very easily, ie. as rampant fobbing, when there is a pressure change. We used to see this very regularly at one brewery I worked at when we were filtering into BBT - beers at around 2.5vol CO2 would drop immediately to <0.5vol as they entered the BBT from the filter; this was becasue the filter was held at high pressure (~2.5bar) to 'assist' CO2 injection into the line. As soon as that pressure was reduced to 1bar (from N2 top pressure in the BBT) the CO2 literally plummets.

Gas pressure is a funny thing - different gases will only stay in solution providing the partial pressure of that gas, ie. the 'amount' of that gas above the product, is equivalent.

For example, loading top pressure from a nitrogen supply onto a tank that has a CO2-only product in it will see the CO2 level drop, no matter how much N2 pressure is applied.

Particularly in the UK, where beers often have both CO2 and N2 in them, it is important to ensure the gas mix at dispense is approximately equal to the ratio of the gases in the beer. Otherwise the levles in the beer will change with time, leading to dispense or presentation problems.

[MikeJordan]

I also agree the using anti-foam is only going to disguise the filling issues you are experiencing.

I have had extensive experience with several different anti-foams. As previously stated they are used to control foaming issues either during the wort kettle boil or maximizing fermenter fill volumes. There are other benefits such as decreasing the hop loss from a vigorous fermentation.

When anti-foams are used they MUST be added to the hot-side as they are not 100% microbe free. Add them during the last 10 min of boil or into the whirlpool.

Many manufactures also recommend filtration for removal of the anti-foam as most of them contain some portion of silicone.

I understand your need for a quick solution but what you are experiencing is a filling issue that requires more than just adding "something" to suppress the foam during fobbing from the bottle filler to capper.

Can't the manufacture of the filling machine provide you with some technical assistance?

[KWLSD]

An interesting, but possibly utterly irrelevant piece of information is that dimethicone - the silicone material used in many antifoams - is the same stuff you find in many proprietary treatments for head lice

[fullmoonwinery]

this is all very interesting data (except perhaps the head lice thing)

today i retired my pump which i felt was causing too much shock to the cider. instead i pressurized my BBT up to 1.8bar with N2 and and connect directly to the filling machine via the filter so my path from tank to filler should be as smooth as silk.

as a result, i'm running the filler surge tank at about 1.5bar now. i notice there a bit more foam breakout as the bottle is filling but i would not say it is excessive.

however, i'm still having massive breakout when the pressure is released.

this bottling run is far worse than my previous runs over the last couple of months and i think its because i over carbonated. i realize now that unless i get a proper measurement of my CO2 levels, i'll probably never get this thing under control.

until i have the equipment in place, i guess i'll just have to carbonate less.

[lhall]

A Zahm-Nagel CO2 tester should run you about $1200 new, I think. They can be found used as well. You really need to start with a consistent carbonation level before you make adjustments to anything else.

[dick murton]

An interesting, but possibly utterly irrelevant piece of information is that dimethicone - the silicone material used in many antifoams - is the same stuff you find in many proprietary treatments for head lice

I understand that bed bugs are making a comeback in London hotels, having spread for the States / Europe. Does it work on these ? A new market for someone - antifoam treated beer shampoo !!

[jbs]

Check to make sure your snift valves are working properly. If your cider bottles are volcanoe like when they come off the fill heads it could be no neck space pressure is being released.