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  • Carbonation Cyle Length

    I am currently a homebrewer and by fall of 2011 will have started a brewery here in my area. Yes I will follow the path that many of you followed starting from home. While I don't have all the experience in working with commercial equipment I will learn the ropes as many others have too. I have been reading about different commercial brewing aspects and this one has currently come to mind.

    What is the general time length that it takes to carbonate a batch of beer when using a carb stone and brite tank? I have read anywhere from hours to a few days. Of course I currently am force carbing corny 5 gallon kegs. I understand that on a commercial level you use a carb stone and carb from the bottom of the tank. What is the average or ballpark timeframe to carb a batch. For a reference our intended volume will be 10BBL and say a carb level of 2.5 volumes C02.

    Thanks,
    Mike
    Mike Sulyi
    BillyGoat Brewing Company
    mike@billygoatbrewingco.com
    www.billygoatbrewingco.com

  • #2
    Hi Mike,
    I normally carb ten bbls to 2.8 vol CO2 in about six to eight hours. I let the gas run through the stone and bleed off the CIP arm at a rate to match the input. I keep the head pressure around 15psi. I keep the tank around 28-30F. Tank temp is one of the big keys. Colder the better, to a point.
    Prost!
    Dave
    Glacier Brewing Company
    406-883-2595
    info@glacierbrewing.com

    "who said what now?"

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    • #3
      it also depends how efficient your carbstone is... like glacier said, crack your CIP arm valve and keep the head pressure around 15psi

      Comment


      • #4
        You can shorten this substantialy by carbonating during transfer, with a stone in a 't, or a dedicated device. Also spend the $ on a good carb stone, especialy if you only need them for one or two brights.



        Edit- Put the carb stone farthest away from the Bright tank and keep the reciving tank at the equalization pressure for the volume of Co2 you want. And of course- the colder the better. With a long run and head preassure you can carb fully in-line.
        Last edited by Ted Briggs; 03-02-2011, 08:45 AM.
        Brewmaster, Minocqua Brewing Company
        tbriggs@minocquabrewingcompany.com
        "Your results may vary"

        Comment


        • #5
          I agree with all the above, with a couple of small differences -

          I've recently started bleeding off at around 10 psi or so during carbonation (depending on the beer and the level of carb I'm going for), so that I don't have to drop the tank pressure much if at all after I'm finished carbing.
          I feel like this is gentler on the beer, and it helps to prevent any sediment in the tank from un-precipitating (not a word, I know) as a result of pressure drop. We currently do everything in unitanks, ie no bright tank, so keeping sediment sedimented is pretty important. This has worked really well for me.

          On all but one of our beers I will shut the blowoff once fermentation has begun to slow significantly. I can typically get up to 1.5, sometimes 2 volumes of natural carbonation, so that saves both co2 and time.

          Holding the beer at 32-33 and using these methods, it usually takes me around 2 hrs to fully carb a 30 bbl batch, twice that for a 60, to around 2.5 vol.
          Last edited by GoldenArm; 03-01-2011, 10:49 AM.

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          • #6
            Our serving tanks aren't fitted with carb stones. I cap the fermenter and allow the beer to carb naturally to 3-5 psi. Then I crash for 3 days and pull yeast from the cone. I'll put the beer on head pressure at 15 psi and hold it at 34 degrees for 3 to 5 days (whenever a serving tank is available) and then transfer. Then head pressure in the serving tank at 15psi and the beer is carbonated and ready within a day or two.

            It probably isn't the best way to do it, but we do what works for us.

            Best,

            Adam Orrick
            Grove Street Brewhouse
            Shelton, WA

            Comment


            • #7
              I can carbonate a 14 bbl batch in 2-3 hours without even using a carb stone ( up to 2.5-2.6 volumes). I bubble the co2 up through the bottom and vent off the top keeping the pressure in the tank at around 25 psi. The more pressure, the faster the co2 will be forced into solution. The faster you vent off the faster it will carbonate but keep that tank pressure as high as possible. Of course make sure your tank is rated to this pressure. Most brite tanks are. Otherwise carbonate at max. pressure possible. Of course make sure the beer is as cold as possible.

              I agree with using an inline carbonator when possible. They work well.

              Comment


              • #8
                We've covered this many times before. Search the posts! I'll say it again: Why would anyone vent CO2? What does this do for you? Is there some physical phenomenon that I don't know about that makes venting perfectly good CO2 to the atmosphere a quicker/cheaper/better solution? I'm at a loss to understand why anyone would vent CO2 at any time during carbonation. At best you are needlessly adding to your carbon footprint. At worst, you are tainting your beer with CO2 bite and losing foam stability in the glass. Please help me out and explain the physics of why you do this.
                Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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                • #9
                  Well to put it simply we vent so that we can carbonate a batch in an hour or two instead of a day or two. I've got orders to fill and unfortunately can't wait that long before packaging can begin.

                  I agree with you about the undesired contribution to our carbon footprint but its nothing compared to venting a 100 bbl brite tank after emptying it, before you can clean it.

                  I used to work in a brewery that had a 100 bbl brite tank with a great carb. stone at the bottom and an agitator half way up the tank (a large paddle installed to mix in yeast and sugar for bottle conditioning). With the agitator on and the tank pressure at 30 psi I could carbonate a 100 bbl batch in no more than two hours. (This was the method we used after we switched from bottle conditioning to force carbonating).

                  We never noticed a negative effect on the beer either. In fact that beer brought home 4 medals from the GABF. Not that that necessarily means anything because the quality of the judging at the GABF is often terrible. Yes, most beer judges are boneheads. Sorry for the off topic rant.

                  Cheers everyone!
                  Last edited by froptus; 03-04-2011, 06:56 PM.

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                  • #10
                    Thanks everyone for the responses. I am happy to see that a shorter timeframe is acceptable to get good beer carbonated and out to customers. I am looking forward to it.

                    Mike
                    Mike Sulyi
                    BillyGoat Brewing Company
                    mike@billygoatbrewingco.com
                    www.billygoatbrewingco.com

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      OK. Thanks for the explanation. I still don't understand how venting any CO2 makes the remaining CO2 go into solution quicker. Seems as if it would work the other way. If you are venting, then either you are dissolving the CO2 at the stone and un-dissolving the CO2 at the beer/gas interface (CO2 bite issues) OR you are just blowing it through the beer (foaming and head issues). Either way it doesn't sound like it would help make dissolution any faster. Could you explain why it might?
                      Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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                      • #12
                        It all depends on the tank pressure. Yes some of the gas going in to the tank bottom will escape through the vent but some will be forced into solution if the tank pressure is high enough. I've also used CO2 to knock carbonation out of a beer by keeping the tank pressure at 0 psi (although nitrogen works better). Of course temperature and volume are factors as well.

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                        • #13
                          My reasoning: If you close the CIP arm, gas quickly stops flowing through the stone, once the applied pressure is equal to the resistance of the system. Once this happens you are just carbonating via head space, which isn't much fun. If you crack the CIP arm, gas is constantly being sent through the stone, so your CO2<-->Beer surface area shoots way up, and it carbonates faster.

                          I generally set the regulator attached to the stone to 20psi, crack the CIP arm valve to a point that keeps the head space in the tank around 10 psi, then leave it overnight. If I need to do it faster, I crank the regulator up to 25psi, set the CIP arm so the head space stays at 15psi, and leave it for 4-5 hours. The drawback with this method is that the manway on our bright tank begins to leak at this pressures, and makes our cold room uncomfortable to work in unless the doors are left open.

                          We're getting a jacketed bright tank next month to play with, hopefully we can keep the beer a little cooler and be able to carbonate faster.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by gitchegumee
                            I still don't understand how venting any CO2 makes the remaining CO2 go into solution quicker. Seems as if it would work the other way. ?
                            Pv=nrt!
                            Because of gas law- surface area and vol of gas vs liquid are important parts of the equation- each bubble increases that x thousands of tiny bubbles. If you cap off either the gas stops coming from the stone or it builds up and explodes the tank- depending on the pressure setting...
                            Brewmaster, Minocqua Brewing Company
                            tbriggs@minocquabrewingcompany.com
                            "Your results may vary"

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by charronc View Post
                              My reasoning: If you close the CIP arm, gas quickly stops flowing through the stone, once the applied pressure is equal to the resistance of the system. Once this happens you are just carbonating via head space, which isn't much fun. If you crack the CIP arm, gas is constantly being sent through the stone, so your CO2<-->Beer surface area shoots way up, and it carbonates faster.

                              I generally set the regulator attached to the stone to 20psi, crack the CIP arm valve to a point that keeps the head space in the tank around 10 psi, then leave it overnight. If I need to do it faster, I crank the regulator up to 25psi, set the CIP arm so the head space stays at 15psi, and leave it for 4-5 hours. The drawback with this method is that the manway on our bright tank begins to leak at this pressures, and makes our cold room uncomfortable to work in unless the doors are left open.

                              We're getting a jacketed bright tank next month to play with, hopefully we can keep the beer a little cooler and be able to carbonate faster.
                              Sorry to revive this thread. But we are comparing the advantages/disadvantages between venting and non-venting. Where are you guys venting your co2 to. My cold room is fairly small and Im concerned with trapping all that co2 in the walk in. Thaanks for the feedback..

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