a 2.5# per barrel dry hop? REALLY??

[BHPubBrewer]

So, I promised a homebrewer I would brew his recipe when he won a competition we had hosted. Upon scaling up his recipe, I've found I need to work a miracle! It calls for nearly 2 1/2 pounds per BBL dry hop with Simcoe!! First off, Simcoe is impossible to find. Secondly even if I were able to create a hop blend to substitute, that is a TON of hops!! Beside the normal dry hop before cooling and rouse the hops idea, anybody out there have any tricks to really boost hop character and really utilize the most of these hops so that I might reduce the quantity? Maybe a dry hop and a randalizer? Anybody have suggestions on types of hops to use to substitute for Simcoe's aroma? (There is a thread on this forum already about subs for Simcoe, but it focuses more on hot applications)

Any help you can give me would be appreciated. I need to get this size 14 brewer's boot out of my mouth! Thanks and Cheers!

[jwalts]

Van Havig - QA manager at Rock Bottom at the time - gave a presentation at the 2009 Craft Brewers Conference about maximizing hop flavor and aroma. His experiments and sensory panels suggested diminishing returns on hop character above about 0.5 lb/bbl for Rock Bottom's dry hopping methods. If you can find the file (I believe it's also published in the MBAA Technical Quarterly), the homebrewer would probably love the industry insight and happily reduce his hop usage.

For a Simcoe aroma substitution, I'd try celery salt .

Joe
Ale Asylum

[william.heinric]

Don't be afraid, brewers on the left coast have been using these dry hop levels for a long period of time. There are, of course, diminishing marginal returns for each additional unit of hop added (whether it's mg, oz, pounds, whatever), but unless you are going to use extracts (which I'd recommend anyway), you better just do it. And simcoe extract might still be out there.

In my experiments, I've found that increasing flavor/aroma hops in the kettle by 30% by weight fills out the holes left by dry hopping. My theory is that each successive dry hop addition has a larger base of slightly more stable hop aromas, and has increased flavor perception. pH also plays a large role, so don't discount keeping your fermentation sufficiently tart (under 5.0), and keep it clean. Diacetyl will cover up hop flavor no matter how many total dissolved mg of oil you have.

Something that may be worth investigating is tiered hop additions. Add your dry hops incrementally and taste as you go. You may find that replicating 5 gal at 2.5#/bbl is doable at 2#/bbl. Of course, it may need 3...

Best of luck,
Bill

[william.heinric]

For a Simcoe aroma substitution, I'd try celery salt .

Ha! Awesome.

[porter]

I find that we get a whole lot more aroma out of our dry hopping if we can stagger the additions of pellets in 2 or 3 stages and recirculate the beer in the fermenter each time.

It takes longer and ties up the tank for longer too but, you can use less and get more aroma. I usually dry hop with about .75lb/bbl for our pale ale and 1.25lb/bbl for our IPA and they are both very hoppy.

I also use similar rates in the kettle for flavor and aroma additions.

[william.heinric]

So I just pulled out my dry hop logs, and my IPA (which is sufficiently hoppy for me) is hopped at 1.16#/bbl, with kettle additions of 0.46#/bbl. I think that maintaining solid yeast management and brewing procedures has really given me efficient hop usage.

I'm still all for 2.5#/bbl in the FV, but your 2.5# should be more efficient than homebrew 2.5#. Maybe save that rate for the DIPA.

Cheers,
Bill

[HinduKush]

I find that we get a whole lot more aroma out of our dry hopping if we can stagger the additions of pellets in 2 or 3 stages and recirculate the beer in the fermenter each time.

It takes longer and ties up the tank for longer too but, you can use less and get more aroma. I usually dry hop with about .75lb/bbl for our pale ale and 1.25lb/bbl for our IPA and they are both very hoppy.

I also use similar rates in the kettle for flavor and aroma additions.

How do you vorlauf without aeration/oxidation?

[jfulton]

How do you vorlauf without aeration/oxidation?

Are you referring to recirculating in the unitank? Fill the pump loop with deaerated water, push it out with CO2, then let 'er rip. If you've got any O2 in your unitank it'll obviously encourage oxidation, but then you have other issues.

[BHPubBrewer]

Thanks to everyone who replied here thus far. I am getting some good ideas. As far as the reply about using hop extracts, how much would you use? I have never used hop extracts of any kind.

And though the celery salt replacement for Simcoe was probably meant in jest, would it be ridiculous to consider dry hopping with an addition of celery seed? I am never one to shy away from experimental ideas if the logic is sound.

[william.heinric]

The way that I calculate the substitution of extracts for pellets is by using the mg/100g oil content rate as the basis, and then do a 1:0.3 replacement of pellet oil with extract. There are some issues here. First of all, you don't extract all of the hop oil from pellets, and you get much higher utilization from extracts when dissolved in non-polar solutions, like everclear. I like to use 5 - 10 ml EtOH to extract.

Adjust your replacement ratio to taste, but what I might consider is dry hopping with pellets first, then using extract to taste. I think that might give you the best of both worlds.

Bill

[drewseslu]

I just put out a brew with 3.3lbs/bbl in the dry hop. I did two dry hop additions 50:50 by weight. Total hop load was 8.5lbs/bbl. It helps having a hop back to get those totals up.
For the Simcoe sub, I'd try Summit with something really fruity like Oregon Willamette.

[GEMills]

Just explain the situation to the home brewer. Then, work together to find an acceptable middle ground.

[Jaltwies]

What I believe you are experiencing when talking about diminishing returns is the simple lack of oil content due to how the hop was dried and processed. Most of the big hop aromas come from the less heat-stable oil fractions. These fractions volatilize at temps well below 140F leaving only myrcene and a very little humulene. Farnescene and caryophyllene are both gone at those temps. Over-heated pelletizing further destroys oil content (gas chromatographs to prove it...). So higher quality, more careful processing will get you more aroma for your buck...