Questions about CIP and Cleaning

[NigeltheBold]

I've been doing lots of research on possibly starting a nanobrewery, but I'm having some trouble understanding how the cleaning process will work. The equipment I'm looking at has 2 bbl capacity, and most of it is equipped with CIP sprayballs. I understand the general concept of CIP, but I don't really understand how it really works. I have a few stupid questions that I'm hoping people will be able to help me with. Remember, I'm very new at this. I've never brewed in a commercial setting, but I'm doing my best to learn how.

Here are my (stupid) questions about CIP and general brewery cleaning:

1) When a tank is emptied, I'm assuming it is rinsed with water. Can it be rinsed with cool water? Where exactly does the water come from? Is it pumped to the tank from somewhere? Does it come from a spigot with a hose on it?

2) After rinsing with water, I'm assuming you mix cleaning solution and warm water in the tank. Again, where does the warm water come from and how much do you use?

3) Then the cleaning solution is recirculated through the tank via a sprayball, correct? But how is it recirculated? Do you use some kind of portable pump?

4) The system I'm looking at comes equipped with sprayballs and such, but it doesn't include pumps or hoses for CIP. What do you recommend using to clean tanks and equipment? I'm not looking for a fancy or expensive system. I don't mind doing some manual cleaning, but I need advice on how to pull it all off. Do I need a portable tank? Portable pumps? Special hoses?

Thanks for the advice, and sorry for my ignorance...

[BigWilley]

You need to visit the closest brewery and ask for a tour. Ask questions. A tour is worth a thousand posts. I could easily answer all your questions but if you are seriously considering opening a brewery and havent done a bunch of tours and asked a hundred questions you arent doing your home work IMHO. Not trying to be a smart ass. Ive been brewing proffessionaly 12 years and have turned down a tour once or twice. Given tons and answered the same questions over and over again gladly. Ive let wanna be brewery owners spend a whole shift watching the whole process answering all the questions and offering advice. This is Probrewer for a reason. Im just saying that if you are serious put some legwork in and check the real thing out. It aint that complicated.

[troybinso]

I'll agree with BigWilley that you should probably watch some CIP in action. But until you do, I will try to answer some of your questions, at least as it pertains to the brewery I work at.

There is a manifold that controls hot and cold water. Cold water comes from the city water service and hot water comes from the hot liquor tank. There is a hose spigot and a tri-clamp fitting near the fermentors that can give hot or cold water, depending on how you manipulate the manifold.

After I drain the tank of beer, I give it a quick hot water spray with a garden hose with a spray nozzle attached. Then fill up the tank with about 10 gallons or so of hot water and some caustic. Attach a 1.5 inch brewery hose to the bottom of the tank and another to the CIP pipe. Attach those hoses to a portable pump. Open up the valves and let 'er rip. Hot cleaning solution is circulated from the bottom of the tank, up through the spray ball, and cascades down the inside of the tank walls.

Drain the cleaning solution, rinse with hot water, continue on to an acid cleaning if needed, rinse again, sanitize.

[revnatscider]

troybinso's response is if you have a manifold water hot/cold system. At 2bbl, that isn't as likely, although I've seen some tricked-out nano systems.

Try to find a very small brewery nearby. 7bbl or even 3bbl if you can. Their system may be more applicable than a 20bbl site.

[NigeltheBold]

I think the smallest brewery within driving distance is 7 bbl. I'll see if I can get in contact with them to schedule a tour or learn more about their system. I've toured a couple of breweries, but usually the tours take place after all of the brewing/cleaning has been done for the day. I suppose it would be best to ask a brewer if I can come in while they are brewing or cleaning to see how it works and ask questions.

Thanks for the help so far though.

[BrewinLou]

A lot of the CIP process is determined by your equipment. Will your FVs have CIP arms and sprayballs? Will you have a HLT? ...

[NigeltheBold]

A lot of the CIP process is determined by your equipment. Will your FVs have CIP arms and sprayballs? Will you have a HLT? ...

The FVs will have sprayballs and CIP arms. We will have a HLT. We may have an electric system, so I don't know if that makes any difference.

[BrewinLou]

Will you have a portable CIP pump or be using one of the brewhouse pumps?

If a tank has sat over night or longer I rinse with cold water first. Then heat it up with HLT water until you get it in the temp range of your chemical cleaner. I use Birko products. Let the hot water all drain out. Then you will have to add a measured amount of hot water. We use 1 bbl on our 30 and 60 bbl tanks, and add the appropriate amount of cleaner. We run 30 min on the sprayball and 15 on the racking arm and sample port. Then dump, rinse with cold and do a visual inspection to see if it came clean. Then add the same measured amount of cold water for the sanitize portion of fun. I always leave the sanitizer in the tank until brewday, then drain and hot rinse with hot water before cooling down for the transfer. Just as a double check. All times and temp are subject to your chemical manufactures directions and your water composition. We also alternate acid washes as needed.
It all starts and ends with cleanliness. Good sanitary technique is the most important part of making beer. The first pilot system I brewed on was owned by a neurosurgeon who helped me understand this very well.

[NigeltheBold]

I think we'll use the brewhouse pumps, but I'm not totally sure about that yet. This may be a stupid question, but would it make things easier if our fermenters were on wheels? They will only be 80 gallon fermenters, so they shouldn't be extremely difficult to push around when they're empty. I was thinking the wheels would be nice so that we could bring the tanks closer to the pumps/brewhouse when they need to be cleaned.

Any thoughts on this?

[CaptainEBC]

You should get a portable pump for CIP / general use. The pumps on our system work great for moving wort in the brewing process, but don't have enough power to pump CIP chemicals across the floor and into the fermenter sprayballs with enough velocity to clean well.

Also, if you need to clean a tank while brewing, you'll have to hook up the caustic recirculation line to the brewery where you run the risk of contaminating your brew.

Our CIP process:

1.) Spray the tank inside down with 185 F water from our tankless water heater. Hot water is much more effective in knocking off yeast and hop particles that are stuck to the walls and top.

2.) Recirculate 3 gal. of hot water through the sprayball, racking arm, and PRV tube.

3.) Drain (repeat if really dirty)

4.) Mix some Shear 250 caustic with 160 deg. water and repeat the recirculation process.

5.) Drain to 30 gal. chemical container (we neutralize and dump when full)

6.) Recirculate hot water

7.) Drain

8.) Mix a solution of Pariacetic acid in 3 gal. of cold water and recirculate through all ports.

9.) Drain solution.

We use a 2 HP pump for the CIP process. Our tanks are 6 & 7 BBL.

We also soak our sample valve in some sanitizer.

[CaptainEBC]

You should get a portable pump for CIP / general use. The pumps on our system work great for moving wort in the brewing process, but don't have enough power to pump CIP chemicals across the floor and into the fermenter sprayballs with enough velocity to clean well.

Also, if you need to clean a tank while brewing, you'll have to hook up the caustic recirculation line to the brewery where you run the risk of contaminating your brew.

Our CIP process:

1.) Spray the tank inside down with 185 F water from our tankless water heater. Hot water is much more effective in knocking off yeast and hop particles that are stuck to the walls and top.

2.) Recirculate 3 gal. of hot water through the sprayball, racking arm, and PRV tube.

3.) Drain (repeat if really dirty)

4.) Mix some Shear 250 caustic with 160 deg. water and repeat the recirculation process.

5.) Drain to 30 gal. chemical container (we neutralize and dump when full)

6.) Recirculate hot water

7.) Drain

8.) Mix a solution of Pariacetic acid in 3 gal. of cold water and recirculate through all ports.

9.) Drain solution.

We use a 2 HP pump for the CIP process. Our tanks are 6 & 7 BBL.

We also soak our sample valve in some sanitizer.

[NigeltheBold]

You should get a portable pump for CIP / general use. The pumps on our system work great for moving wort in the brewing process, but don't have enough power to pump CIP chemicals across the floor and into the fermenter sprayballs with enough velocity to clean well.

Also, if you need to clean a tank while brewing, you'll have to hook up the caustic recirculation line to the brewery where you run the risk of contaminating your brew.

Our CIP process:

1.) Spray the tank inside down with 185 F water from our tankless water heater. Hot water is much more effective in knocking off yeast and hop particles that are stuck to the walls and top.

2.) Recirculate 3 gal. of hot water through the sprayball, racking arm, and PRV tube.

3.) Drain (repeat if really dirty)

4.) Mix some Shear 250 caustic with 160 deg. water and repeat the recirculation process.

5.) Drain to 30 gal. chemical container (we neutralize and dump when full)

6.) Recirculate hot water

7.) Drain

8.) Mix a solution of Pariacetic acid in 3 gal. of cold water and recirculate through all ports.

9.) Drain solution.

We use a 2 HP pump for the CIP process. Our tanks are 6 & 7 BBL.

We also soak our sample valve in some sanitizer.

So I'm assuming you use a hose to fill the tanks with hot water from your water heater. Do you also have cold water lines/hoses? Or does the other water come from the brewhouse?

Also, do you just mix your caustic solution in the tank you're cleaning? Or do you use a separate tank to mix a solution and then pump it through?

A portable CIP pump would be nice, as long as it isn't extremely expensive. Something that would work on a small system would be nice too. We don't want to overdo it, but at the same time, cleaning is very important as we all know. I'll poke around and see if I can find a reasonably priced pump. Any suggestions of where to look? Any idea how much I should be spending?

Thanks

[CaptainEBC]

The brewery is hard piped into the tankless water heater and there is also a hose connection. The temperature is controlled by a remote built into our command center.

We have a graduated bucket that we use to mix the water and caustic, then dump it in.

For any finished product transfer, make sure you use a sanitary pump with Tri-clamp fittings. There are tons of things in a brewery that can be overdone except for cleaning.

We use a Topline CP114 with a 2hp motor for our CIP, and CP114 with a .75hp motor for our wort transfer.

[NigeltheBold]

For any finished product transfer, make sure you use a sanitary pump with Tri-clamp fittings. There are tons of things in a brewery that can be overdone except for cleaning.

I know this thread is old, but I thought I would attempt to continue it instead of starting a new thread with more stupid questions.

In your CIP process, I see that you don't have an acid AND sanitizer cycle. Does the peroxyacetic acid count as both cycles combined into one? Also, what do you use for passivation and how often do you do it?

Thanks for your help. I'm learning a ton on this forum!

[CaptainEBC]

We do acid cleaner just about every 2 brews, after the caustic. We use PAA for sanitizing.