Question for the water Gurus...

[theBrewMeister]

We're currently building a production facility and I just got the water data.
So tell me, how bad is this water for brewing? With and without a water softener, what kind of adjustments will need to be made?

Thank you kindly!!!


Total Alkalinity - 181mg/L

Calcium - 83mg/L

Chloride -11mg/L

Total Hardness - 294mg/L

Residue (whatever this is?) - 382mg/L

Sodium - 10mg/L

Sulfate - 96mg/L

[WaterEng]

If it wasn't for that sulfate level, you could have had options for water treatment.

The Mg level is apparently somewhat high at about 21 ppm based on the reported hardness. Its not good, but its not bad.

The alkalinity is fairly substantial but there are several options for treatment including boiling or lime softening. Those treatment options won't do anything for the sulfate though. Therefore, you are left with a membrane process to reduce the ionic content.

Nanofiltration will leave more of the ionic content in the product water and its more efficient in both energy and water usage. But that ionic content is likely to be more than low enough for typical brewing usage. If you're a stickler for purer water, then going all the way to RO is the way to go.

[dfalken]

If I am able to brew successfully with my water I see no problem with yours, and I am brewing a light wheat ale that tastes great.

My alkalinity is 280, my sulfates are slightly lower than yours at 77 and my calcium is low at 40. I've used enough phosphoric acid to bring my residual alkalinity down to -33 and some calcium chloride to bring my calcium up and my chloride in balance with the sulfates and the beer tastes great.

Your sulfates are high but not terribly high and as long as they are not ridiculously high (which yours are not) what matters most is the balance between chlorides and sulfates not absolute numbers.

You could use lime to bring the alkalinity down but then you have to deal with the sediment. I am getting rid of more alkalinity than you have with just phosphoric and it's working out fine.

My Mg is higher than yours at 30ppm but it still below a problematic level.

I am curious to hear in more detail why WaterEng thinks your water can't be dealt with.

We're currently building a production facility and I just got the water data.
So tell me, how bad is this water for brewing? With and without a water softener, what kind of adjustments will need to be made?

Thank you kindly!!!


Total Alkalinity - 181mg/L

Calcium - 83mg/L

Chloride -11mg/L

Total Hardness - 294mg/L

Residue (whatever this is?) - 382mg/L

Sodium - 10mg/L

Sulfate - 96mg/L

[theBrewMeister]

I figured the sulfates were high... Does a softener have an effect on Sulfate or just calcium?

[WaterEng]

Its unfortunate that there are brewers that actually think that the balance of chloride and sulfate is what matters most and not the absolute values. It should take a moment to realize that a water with 50 ppm each of Cl and SO4 would taste far different from a water with 150 ppm each of those same ions. Their balance is the same, why aren't they the same water??

That reported sulfate level is fine for many beer styles, but its going to be a detriment for brewing malt focused styles. Adding chloride to boost the perception of maltiness will run into the harshness of the excessive sulfate. Malty styles will require the sulfate level to be much lower than indicated above. You can't add your way out of that problem.

A typical ion-exchange water softener does not affect chloride or sulfate concentration. There are de-ionizing columns that can be used to reduce those ions, but they are specialized units and may be impracticle for brewery use.

[dfalken]

It is unfortunate that there are homebrewers out there who don't understand that 100ppm of sulfate is not too high to brew good beer even when a malty profile is desired as long as the the chloride is brought into balance. It is also unfortunate that some homebrewers don't understand that lime can be used to soften water and when questioned politely via email they reply arrogantly without substance and when presented with facts from the research of other more experienced brewers and water experts they simply decide to no longer respond. It is unfortunate that the arrogance of some people doesn't let them see their own limitations.

Its unfortunate that there are brewers that actually think that the balance of chloride and sulfate is what matters most and not the absolute values. It should take a moment to realize that a water with 50 ppm each of Cl and SO4 would taste far different from a water with 150 ppm each of those same ions. Their balance is the same, why aren't they the same water??

That reported sulfate level is fine for many beer styles, but its going to be a detriment for brewing malt focused styles. Adding chloride to boost the perception of maltiness will run into the harshness of the excessive sulfate. Malty styles will require the sulfate level to be much lower than indicated above. You can't add your way out of that problem.

A typical ion-exchange water softener does not affect chloride or sulfate concentration. There are de-ionizing columns that can be used to reduce those ions, but they are specialized units and may be impracticle for brewery use.

[theBrewMeister]

Interesting exchange here.

The ''Burton on Trent'' water profile, which is known for English ales/pale ales, is 800 ppm sulfate. Now, that's significantly higher than what I'm looking at, however, one would assume that, compared to the Burton water, mine isn't all that high.

[dfalken]

Hi Brewmeister,

Sorry for having to swat away some arrogance which detracted from your original question. For very bitter beers, much higher sulfate levels can be used but the IPAs brewed with Burton on Trent water are on the extreme end of the spectrum. Normally you wouldn't want sulfates above 150 for most "normal" beers but for very bitter beers 150-350ppm are desirable. At levels above 400ppm they can be detrimental to beer flavor as they add astringency. And at higher levels above 700 they can be laxative.

It is true that for very light pilseners for example you might desire lower levels around 50ppm but that doesn't mean you can't brew a light beer with your 96ppm. If you read Palmer's book he talks about sulfates being in the 50-150ppm range. Again, balancing the chloride level with the sulfates will allow you to brew a lighter lighlty hopped beer where the sulfate doesn't bring out unwanted hope bitterness. I am currently doing water tests on a light wheat beer. As I said my Sulfates are 77ppm and my chloride is 21ppm. I started out with an untreated water brew and the sulfates (and high bicarbonates) did produce some harsh bitterness. Next, I brought my chloride levels into the low 100s and got rid of a bunch of bicarbonate and the beer actually turned out too "soft". I will be backing up a bit on the chloride on the next brew to allow some more assertiveness on the bitterness. There are different ways to skin a cat and while sulfates like those seen with Burton on Trent water will certainly not allow you to brew light malty styles, your 96ppm might not be ideal for such styles but can be worked with.

Oh and regarding Magnesium levels, I have no idea why this other person believes your level is high. The yeast actually benefits from 10-20ppm of Magnesium as a nutrient. Above 50ppm it starts to become troublesome.

Interesting exchange here.

The ''Burton on Trent'' water profile, which is known for English ales/pale ales, is 800 ppm sulfate. Now, that's significantly higher than what I'm looking at, however, one would assume that, compared to the Burton water, mine isn't all that high.

[theBrewMeister]

Thanks again for your input.

One final question: Is there a calculator or something available to determine the effect a water softener will have?

The company that I've been talking to for a carbon filtration system made the suggestion to consider a softener. As I understand it, water softeners replace 1:1 ion between sodium and total hardness - which is calcium and magnesium. So, would this remove ALL Ca and Mg??? That would also put my Na at over 300! This seems unlikely to me.

[Graydon]

David is correct and in fact he has close to 280ppm bicarbonate in his water. I worked with David on his water and we had great results.

I strongly suggest you do not raise your Na. Water has a profound affect on beer flavor.

Graydon