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Thread: sump pumps

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    new york
    Posts
    146

    sump pumps

    Can anyone recomend a sump pump that can handle the pH flucuations and temperatures sent down the drain in a brewery?

    On the same note, can anyone recomend a brand of floor channel drains to use with the same requirements?

    thanks,
    Scott

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Santa Rosa CA USA
    Posts
    962
    Both Grainger and Mcmaster-Carr have hightemp cast iron sump pumps suitable. They are not cheap. If you can't find what you need, contact me. I'll make you a deal on an disgustingly used one for cheap. When hot caustic is going down, try to either dilute with some acid or just cool water so it is not both hot and caustic.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Mukilteo, WA
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    304
    I got your E-mail earlier, Scott...........sorry, been busy building our second......

    We have a sump basin that's about 50 gallons or so. It has about 10 gallons of standing water at the bottom that the pump won't drain due to the height of the sump pump. Our basin was made by a local company that makes them as electical vaults for underground installations. It's about 2 ft wide by 3 ft wide by about 3 ft deep. The basin is installed below an overhang of the concrete brewing pad we had poured which is also the lowest point on the pad. Everything drains to that. (you can see the lay-out on our B2 website).

    I looked at M-C and Grainger both and thought there pumps were quite pricey as well. I rolled the dice and ended up buying a premium "guarenteed for life" sewer pump from Home Depot. My reckoning was that the basin will have cold water in it and will dilute some of the hot coming in. Also, in our process at our second site, we won't be dumping a lot of hot water down the sump basin..........it's for run-off, and I installed a perimeter sewer main around the Brewery wall with ports to drain into directly for caustic. For hot water run-off, it will be cooled enough by the concrete to fall well without the operating temps of the pump. Also, I could buy 4 pumps for the cost of 1 M-C stainless unit.

    We selected a pump capable of 100 gal/min, but that was probably quite an overkill, but works well with the 2" DIA sewer lines I installed for the perimeter sewer main. To throttle it down a bit, I cut in a section of 1/5" DIA pipe and installed a PVC ball valve. Using a sewer pump will allow for some degree of solids under 1/2 inch to pass through..........they're centrifugal pumps with an open suction port on the bottom.

    Some things you will need to know...............

    1.) When you run your sump drain line (that the pump will be pumping through), run at least 1.5 - 2.0 inch DIA.

    2.) Install Studer (Studor?) Vents if your code allows (it's allowed in the UBC). These are "close in" vents and do not require roof penetrations. Basically, they're a check valve that allows air in but no liquid or gases out. They're genius. You can get them at Home Depot.

    3.) Slope your drain lines toward your sewer connection at least 1/8 inch per foot of run.

    4.) When ruuning drain lines, use the large radius "sweep" elbows at corners, not the tight radius ones. You want that pump to hit as little resistance as possible.

    5.) Install a PVC check valve just in the drain line just after the pump to prevent the waste water from draining back down into your sump basin. The pump instractions usually give some sort of installation guide for this. Place a PVC check valve at every location where you have to pump up to another elevation to prevent backflow. Backflow will drain back into the basin and cause the pump to keep running or short cycle, which kills a motor in no time.

    6.) While you're cutting in the line, have a tee installed vertically at locations where you might have future equipment placed so you don't have to alter you sewer drain lines in the future. You can cap it off with a threaded drain cap.

    Anyway, Scott, just some stray thoughts on sewer basin/pump design and considerations. The concrete cutting pics looked awesome. Please send more.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jul 2004
    Location
    new york
    Posts
    146
    Those are some very good points, and i will be sure to include them in the design.

    I have been having a hard time with choosing a floor drain brand. I have been given qoutes for both NDS and Watts, but both seem pretty high at $37 and $47 per foot respectively.

    I may be going overkill by telling the suppliers that I need them to withstand hot 2% caustic, as well as acid. I don't want to melt the drains and have to reinstall them so i would like to do it right the first time.

    Can you recomend a brand of floor drains that is known to with stand the brewery abuse?

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Dec 2004
    Location
    Mukilteo, WA
    Posts
    304
    I wish I could give you some good info there, Buddy. We drain the brewing pad surface to a central sump basin, and do not use the trough drains as it is done in many other Breweries.

    To cover our sump basin, I welded a stainless grate from stainless angle I procured at a local steel supplier. The floor coating we selected is capable of withstanding the caustic and acidic materials, but the pump we chose is probably not rated for too high of a concentration level of caustic. That's why I installed the drain ports around the perimeter of the brewing pad.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Santa Rosa CA USA
    Posts
    962
    I once bought inexpensive floor drains... they are not something that can be easily replaced when they leak and warp. Not a good place to scrimp. I used a medium stainless steel drum with the lid cut off for a basin, worked pretty well, the frogs liked it.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    83
    Hi Scott-

    If, as I assume, that $37-$47 dollar figure didn't include installation it does seem high. Which NDS and Watts products were you looking at? I've got a quote coming on ACO KS100S polyester polymer vinyl drain from Grating Pacific in WA. Looks like they have good chemical resistance and are available with SS edge rails.

    How are you planning to use your sump? Is it to lift all your effluent to sewer level or to collect cleaning chemicals?

    -Clarke.
    Clarke Pelz
    North Star Brewing

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Nov 2003
    Location
    Kernville, Ca USA
    Posts
    201

    Any luck

    Just wondering if anyone had any luck in finding and purchasing the floor drains. I am also looking at the Grating pacific website at the K100S floor drain.. Does anyone have any feedback on this drain?

    Thanks
    Kyle

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2002
    Location
    Auburn, CA
    Posts
    46

    Trench Drains

    Gentlemen,
    I have had success in the past with a 6" pre-sloped trench drain from Polycast. It is made from a corrosion-resistant polymer material that will stand up to most normal brewery chemicals and the "thermo-shock" experienced in brewery conditions.
    Zurn also makes a similar product, Z886 I think.
    To reduce the waste water temps I install a 1/2" copper cold water supply to the high end of the drain in the end cap. Install a valve on a nearby wall to control the flow and to shut it off. This also satisfied our building inspector who was concerned with "magma-hot" effluents traveling to his wastewater treatment plant Also great for flushing the drain.
    Prices are 25-35$ per foot, material only, no grates! They offer a few choices in grates such as polymer, cast iron and stainless. Don't buy the steel!
    A few things to consider: Make sure you size the drain for your brewery! Estimate the volumes at a worst-case senario and buy the appropriate sized drain.Overflows are ugly. Moonlight is right on! skimp here and you'll reget it! Make sure the concrete around and under the drain is a minimum of 5" thick. Reinforce the perimeter with # 4 rebar with tiebacks to the slab at least 12"long and at 24" on center. Saw-cut control joints off of the corners to reduce seperation of the two materials. They need to be at least 1/3rd the slab thickness to be effective! You can fill them in with epoxy grout or filler to keep out the junk.

    Hope this helps!
    Cheers,
    Brian
    Auburn Alehouse

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Oct 2003
    Location
    Santa Rosa CA USA
    Posts
    962
    Can I recommend having a back-up sump pump if you ever plan on brewing when Home Depot isn't open? 3 am and the sump pump melts as you empty the kettle and somehow you wish...

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Anchorage, AK
    Posts
    83
    Hi Kyle-

    Just been catching up with the forum and saw your post.

    We ended up installing 5 drains in our floor 4 of them using the K100S drain from Pacific Grating drain. They were a little strange to work with. They were brittle and we had several chips taken out of them during shipping and handling. The segments just butted against each other dry. We sealed the joints and patched the chips with Sikaflex.

    The day before the floor was poured we had some cement dropped off and set the drains in dollops of concrete. We made no expansion joints around them. (We'll probably regret that.) With only two months of use on them we're quite happy. I was somewhat concerned about their "surge capacity" when emptying tanks. I had wanted to install a basin for each of them, but during design I didn't know if that would interfere with our drain slope as the basins were rather deep. They also had iron components in them rather than stainless. The drains, being rather deep, are working just fine. The final answer will be 5 to 10 years down the road of course.

    Lots of good advise in this thread.

    -Clarke.
    Clarke Pelz
    North Star Brewing

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