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We'd like to hear your lessons learnt... Planning to set up a Stout 3BBL System

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  • #16
    Hi St. Benjamin,

    There are two things to do to avoid scorching wort on a direct fire brew kettle with a center clean out pipe. The first is to be sure your burners are not putting heat directly onto that center pipe (or are not too close to it). The other thing you might consider is wrapping that pipe with insulation (e.g., rock wool insulation or similar) if you are still seeing issues. Another measure would be to actively recirculate the wort while boiling, using the tangential inlet and the center cleanout pipe. I don't think this likely to be necessary in most situations.

    We have another customer brewing with a direct fire system and whole hops, and they put a false bottom in the brew kettle to keep them out of the wort chiller. They have reported good results - they did not want to use hop bags any more.

    Cheers,

    John/Stout Tanks and Kettles

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    • #17
      That sounds like a good solution and better than my idea of welding a plate over the tube to act as a heat shield. Did you just get the wrap at an auto parts store or somewhere online?

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      • #18
        John,

        I'll check and see what area our burners are hitting, but since the diameter of that tank is sort of small I don't see how that port won't get hit or be near some pretty intense flames.

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        • #19
          Originally posted by StonesThrow View Post
          hey 515Dave,

          I'm interested in why you use hop bags, what problems have you had? We have a 3BBL Stout system (direct fire, not electric) and just dump the hops in freely. I haven't had any issue thus far. We're just shy of a year in. I will agree that the flat kettle lid is pretty much worthless.

          Also, what did you not like about the fermenters? We have four 3BBL, with two 6BBL on the way. I've been happy with their performance. I could, however, just be simply ignorant to what I'm missing. I'm just trying to understand my system as well as I possibly can.
          Sorry just getting back to this now. First off, as John said above, remember that both my system and the ones I saw are several years old at this point and I'm sure there have been a variety of improvements made to them. So this is just my experience, and may not be representative of what you actually would see in practice from a new system.

          We have to use them on most of our beers because the bottom outlets aren't positioned in a way that allows the trub (and spent hops) pile to gather far enough away from the side outlet, so the side outlet ends up sucking up a bunch of hop material and trub. Enough to plug the HX originally. On lightly hopped beers we can get away without them, but on our more heavily hopped beers, it would be totally unworkable to not use hop bags, which also has the negative drawback of making the whirlpool less effective (though that's also partially because of the elements in the way).

          Ideally, for us, the outlet would be quite a ways further out from the center of the kettle to allow a larger/wider trub pile to form after whirlpooling.

          We have also had issues with the mash tun geometry for wheat beers, which we overcome by throwing in rice hulls, and the bottom screen doesn't seal very well, so we generally end up with some grain getting into the boil, even after an extended vourlauf, which is pretty irritating as well.

          As for the fermenters - the lids don't seal (they don't seal worth a damn on our kettle, mash tun or HLT either..always leaking during CIP. I think this is a clamping pressure issue more than anything, as some clamps on the lid are tighter than others and it makes the seal clamped under uneven pressure) and krausen was shooting out of them like something out of willy wonka.

          Overall, like I said, it's workable, and I'd personally rather be running these than something from psychobrew or a Frankenstein system someone built out of random tank parts, but the setup we have has enough annoyances to make it somewhat irritating to brew on, though it is MUCH better electric than it was with gas.

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          • #20
            Originally posted by 515Dave View Post
            Sorry just getting back to this now. First off, as John said above, remember that both my system and the ones I saw are several years old at this point and I'm sure there have been a variety of improvements made to them. So this is just my experience, and may not be representative of what you actually would see in practice from a new system.

            We have to use them on most of our beers because the bottom outlets aren't positioned in a way that allows the trub (and spent hops) pile to gather far enough away from the side outlet, so the side outlet ends up sucking up a bunch of hop material and trub. Enough to plug the HX originally. On lightly hopped beers we can get away without them, but on our more heavily hopped beers, it would be totally unworkable to not use hop bags, which also has the negative drawback of making the whirlpool less effective (though that's also partially because of the elements in the way).

            Ideally, for us, the outlet would be quite a ways further out from the center of the kettle to allow a larger/wider trub pile to form after whirlpooling.

            We have also had issues with the mash tun geometry for wheat beers, which we overcome by throwing in rice hulls, and the bottom screen doesn't seal very well, so we generally end up with some grain getting into the boil, even after an extended vourlauf, which is pretty irritating as well.

            As for the fermenters - the lids don't seal (they don't seal worth a damn on our kettle, mash tun or HLT either..always leaking during CIP. I think this is a clamping pressure issue more than anything, as some clamps on the lid are tighter than others and it makes the seal clamped under uneven pressure) and krausen was shooting out of them like something out of willy wonka.

            Overall, like I said, it's workable, and I'd personally rather be running these than something from psychobrew or a Frankenstein system someone built out of random tank parts, but the setup we have has enough annoyances to make it somewhat irritating to brew on, though it is MUCH better electric than it was with gas.


            Thanks Dave! Yeah, it sounds like they've fixed those problems on the equipment we've got, as we have none of those problems. I've even got the direct fire version. Thanks for the reply!

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            • #21
              Originally posted by Brandjes View Post
              I had the same issue with scorching in the bottom knock out tube. I have 2 burners that sit at about 10 and 2 (knock out tube at 6) but it was still to much heat for the tube so I wrapped the tube in high temp exhaust wrap. I still get a tiny bit of scorched material at the point where the tube is welded to the bottom of the kettle because the wrap doesn't cover that area - but I haven't had any issues with it affecting whirlpool or releasing into the beer.
              Did you just get the exhaust header wrap that you'd use on a high performance or turbo car? How does it handle it if some of the flame hits it? We are modifying our kettle this week and I could add that pretty easily if I order it.

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              • #22
                Yes. I got the wrap from the autoparts store. There is one spot that gets direct flame and it hasn't hurt it at all. The wrap makes a night and day difference
                Prost!
                Eric Brandjes
                Cole Street Brewery
                Enumclaw, WA

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                • #23
                  Also. I doubled up the wrap because I had enough on the roll to do it.
                  Prost!
                  Eric Brandjes
                  Cole Street Brewery
                  Enumclaw, WA

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                  • #24
                    Ok, I'll jump in here.

                    We're using an electric Stout Tanks 3bbl system with controls by Ebrewsupply.

                    Things I've learned along the way:

                    Mash Tun is too small (already noted on an earlier post). We "modified" our mashtun by cutting it into pieces and welding it to a 7bbl tank we had originally intended to use as a Brite Beer tank.We now refer to it as FrankenTun.

                    HLT size in the beginning was a huge issue on multiple brew days, what I've moved to is using the BK and HLT to heat our initial water for the brewday. I use the BK for dough in, and the HLT for sparge, after sparge I immediately fill the HLT to half full and bring to a boil while the first brew of the day is boiling. During knock out I collect the hot water from our heat exchanger and top off the HLT getting us to temp for Dough in of brew two. After dough in of brew two I immediately fill the HLT to the sparge amount needed and bring to temp while mashing. We use this method to brew three batches in a day to fill our 10bbl fermenters. It's a long, long day.

                    I tried to use the RIMS system we bought from Stout and only frustrated myself (refer to conversation earlier about the false bottom allowing grains through), it now sits in a corner of the brewhouse awaiting repurposing of some sort that hasn't been thought of yet.

                    A note about multiple brews in a day, get a cold liquor tank that will house enough water for all your brews, it's the only way we can get through knockout quickly enough to make it all happen.

                    Hope this helps some.
                    Todd

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by GallowsHillBrew View Post
                      For all practical purposes we have made our minds up regarding the system we are going for... The plan is to run the following:
                      Custom Hot Liquor Tank - more than double the standard Stout version to allow multiple batches and running our small pilot system from the same hot water source
                      Stout Insulated Mash Tun
                      Stout Insulated Domed Kettle with condensation stack
                      Possibly we'll get the new hop back / grant combo vessel
                      The electrical, heating & control items will be manufactured locally

                      What we would like to know is the lessons learnt by others to run a Stout system.

                      How are your vessels configured?
                      What hose configuration are you using?
                      Which pumps?
                      What chiller size?
                      Any tips and tricks you are willing to share?

                      Thanks in advance
                      Schalk



                      Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
                      I have been using a Stout system for about 6-7 months. Its a 3bbl direct fire. I started with 2 burners flanking the center drain pipe but didn't have a good boil they seem to be fighting each other for air. I am now using 1 and have wrapped the center pipe with header wrap for exhaust pipes. I have had 2 batches out of 45 burn or scorch from grain/hops/trub burning in the center pipe which transferred into beer leaving a burnt flavor. I then replaced the grant with my homebrew mash tun so I could use the mash screen to prevent grain from getting into kettle and burning. I also starting whirlpooling the wort with a chugger pump while its coming to a boil to prevent stuff from burning on the bottom. I have been using it to make beers ranging from 3.7%-10.5% I have had pretty good results thus far. The flat lid is kind of a pain when I cip but nothing to crazy. I also put the mash tun on cinder blocks so I could grain out easier.

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                      • #26
                        Originally posted by Dred3 View Post
                        I have been using a Stout system for about 6-7 months. Its a 3bbl direct fire. I started with 2 burners flanking the center drain pipe but didn't have a good boil they seem to be fighting each other for air. I am now using 1 and have wrapped the center pipe with header wrap for exhaust pipes. I have had 2 batches out of 45 burn or scorch from grain/hops/trub burning in the center pipe which transferred into beer leaving a burnt flavor. I then replaced the grant with my homebrew mash tun so I could use the mash screen to prevent grain from getting into kettle and burning. I also starting whirlpooling the wort with a chugger pump while its coming to a boil to prevent stuff from burning on the bottom. I have been using it to make beers ranging from 3.7%-10.5% I have had pretty good results thus far. The flat lid is kind of a pain when I cip but nothing to crazy. I also put the mash tun on cinder blocks so I could grain out easier.
                        Hi Dred3,

                        The chugger pump sounds like it is too small for 3 bbls - you might check out a bigger pump for whirlpooling. If the burners are lacking air, you need to look at giving them a bit more - call us if you have questions on how to go about that as well as perhaps discussing your vorlauf process.

                        Cheers,

                        John/Stout Tanks

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by stouttanks View Post
                          Hi Dred3,

                          The chugger pump sounds like it is too small for 3 bbls - you might check out a bigger pump for whirlpooling. If the burners are lacking air, you need to look at giving them a bit more - call us if you have questions on how to go about that as well as perhaps discussing your vorlauf process.

                          Cheers,

                          John/Stout Tanks
                          The chugger pump is used just for moving wort from grant to kettle, I have a bigger pump for whirlpool. I have opened up the heat shields allowing more air for burners seems to work better. I do vorlauf for 10-15 min until wort is clear but found that using my home brew mash tun instead of grant keeps the little extra grain from getting into kettle. We are considering welding a heat shield around the center pipe to prevent direct heat and scorching of wort. AL.

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                          • #28
                            hop basket

                            I wonder with the hop basket the space for the heating elements is very short. This then means the element has to be order special from a source. also for a short length the Power will most likely be in the 2kwatts range.

                            Chuck

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                            • #29
                              If anyone still needs the info

                              Seems like maybe a deadish thread, but figured I could throw some input on here.

                              I have a 3bbl stout system, direct fire.

                              The biggest issues I currently have are efficiencies on multiple levels: extraction efficiencies from the mash tun (I usually run about 72%) and the lack of efficiency of direct fire burners on the bottom of the kettle.
                              I have 2 smallish burners (can't remember the btus, maybe 120 or 150k?) The biggest issues I find are not being able to make a beer above 20 plato og without using a bunch of sugar and the amount of time it takes to get to a boil (I've reconfigured the burners about 15 different times for different angles) My feeling about the BK geometry is that Stout might be better off making a kettle with a wider bottom for the direct fire systems so it doesn't take like 2 hours to get to a boil from mash out. Maybe a bit of a "stouter" tank would allow for more surface area to take on more heat from the burners directly without it taking so damn long to get it rolling. I've talked to a few other nanos in my region with the same system and they all report the same general amount of time to get their wort to a boil. Most (including myself) agree on about 1 hour 45 mins to 2 hours 15 mins to get it from knockout of the MT to boil.

                              As far as worrying about clogging HX's, use your grant while knocking out of the kettle to the fermenter. Knock out slow and the grant acts like a mini whirlpool to get residual hops/trub/proteins to settle out in the center of the grant. I also use an in-line strainer sometimes as long as it isn't overworking my pump by giving it feed deficiencies. I've been brewing for about 8 months now and using the grant pre-fermenter, I don't think I've backed up the HX in since I made the switch.

                              As far as pumps go , the March Nano pumps work pretty well, just make sure (with with the strainer) that you don't restrict the input *use 3/4-1inch id hose.

                              Besides the efficiency of working against the skinnyness of the BK, working around the cleanout pipe and dealing with a couple other odds and ends, I love the system for what it is.
                              Granted, it's limited, but if you know what you are doing you can make good beer and that's the most important thing.
                              If anyone has any questions about the Stout system and it's idiosyncracies (<spelling?) feel free to PM me.
                              be good
                              Dave Witham
                              Founder/Brewmaster
                              Proclamation Ale Company

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                Hi Dave,

                                Thanks for your post. I would like to share some practices some of our other customers are doing to increase the mash efficiency.

                                Before I do, I'd like to say that we developed this system to provide a cost effective entry level brewing system - many of our customers buying 3 bbl systems have very limited budgets and we are trying to balance cost and performance. We do have our dome top kettle which has a 5" bigger diameter and we have also made brew kettles with bottoms that slope to a cleanout port and eliminate the center cleanout pipe.

                                Also, are you preheating the wort during sparge? That is a great way to speed up getting to boil.

                                A customer in South Carolina reports a 93% efficiency. Here are some notes I took from a recent call with them:

                                1. Use 5 or 6 pounds of rice hulls in the mash.
                                2. Big beers - use 1.1 quarts/pound of malt for mash in.
                                3. IPA uses 1.125 quarts/pound.
                                4. Increase the amount of sparge water to compensate for the drier mash
                                5. Do a 45 minute conversion rest
                                6. Then re-stir the mash all the way down to the bottom of the tun
                                7. Recirc again to set up the grain bed before sparging (this process eliminates channeling)

                                I believe in a previous discussion they mentioned that they recirculate during the entire mash process - but I'm not 100% sure on that.

                                I hope this is helpful.

                                Cheers,

                                John/Stout Tanks and Kettles

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