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  • #16
    Under Pressure

    Procedure for CIP under pressure.
    1) Empty serving tank, kegs, whatever.
    2) Raise temp controller to desires setting (110F for my application)
    3) Hook up cold water hose with TC connector to CIP/Sprayball arm.
    4) Rinse tank by turning opening CIP valve to let cold H2O in while simultaneously opening bottom drain valve on server to push rinse water out. You can let the rinse water build up a bit and drain intermittently or try to equalize the drain valve by opening it partially.
    5) Shut all valves and switch to hot water, repeat #4 till you hit desired temp.
    6) Fill a keg with acid #6 solution and blow it into the tank under pressure.
    7) Hook up pump and let recirc under pressure 30 minutes.
    8) Shut down pump and open bottom valve on tank to drain acid.
    9) repeat #4 to rinse
    10) repeat #6 with no rinse sanitizer instead of acid.
    11) repeat #7
    12) Drain sani (I push it through the serving line for good measure) and fill with beer.
    I dont mean to be overly explanatory but this process is tricky until you do it once then its a piece of cake, much like filtering.
    Big Willey
    "You are what you is." FZ

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    • #17
      Sweet,

      thanks for the description
      Larry Horwitz

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      • #18
        The issue with PBW is that when draining the vessel, cool air is allowed in and that allows flash evaporation of the cleaner which will create the white staining of the vessel. You should start a rinse before you empty the PBW wash allowing some pressure to build up, then open your drain, to get the residue from offen the inner skin of the vessel. This will reduce the amount of mineral stain in the vessel. Also PBW is not good with all water tables.
        BrewerAllyn

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        • #19
          Time to revive this thread

          We've always cleaned our brite tanks under pressure and recently upon opening one up we were shocked to find a tremendous amount of white chalky substance adhered to the side walls, dome top and some of the dish bottom of the tank. We used to use Five Star Acid # 6 per the instructions only, but because we don't filter our beer and the less than ideal results of Acid # 6 only we began using PBW prior to Acid # 6 as a way to still clean the tank packed with Co2 and under pressure. We include thorough rinses between cycles and the PBW cycle is done hot. We're not positive it's PBW residue, but it really seems to be the case. I've searched around them internets, called Five Star (still waiting to hear back) and tried a number of things already. We've tried a higher concentration cycle with Acid # 5 hot, higher concentration cycle Acid # 6 cold, a cycle with a few gallons of distilled white vinegar, Citrasurf rust remover and passivation solution, and nothing seems to work. Even manual scrubbing with blue scoth brite pads doesnt seem to work. Is there any light that the sages of Probrewer.com can shed on this issue?

          Thanks in advance!
          Aaren M. Simoncini
          The Beer'd Brewing Co. LLC
          22 Bayview Ave. Unit # 15
          Stonington, CT. 06378
          Aaren@beerdbrewing.com

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          • #20
            Originally posted by AMS0286 View Post
            We've always cleaned our brite tanks under pressure and recently upon opening one up we were shocked to find a tremendous amount of white chalky substance adhered to the side walls, dome top and some of the dish bottom of the tank. We used to use Five Star Acid # 6 per the instructions only, but because we don't filter our beer and the less than ideal results of Acid # 6 only we began using PBW prior to Acid # 6 as a way to still clean the tank packed with Co2 and under pressure. We include thorough rinses between cycles and the PBW cycle is done hot. We're not positive it's PBW residue, but it really seems to be the case. I've searched around them internets, called Five Star (still waiting to hear back) and tried a number of things already. We've tried a higher concentration cycle with Acid # 5 hot, higher concentration cycle Acid # 6 cold, a cycle with a few gallons of distilled white vinegar, Citrasurf rust remover and passivation solution, and nothing seems to work. Even manual scrubbing with blue scoth brite pads doesnt seem to work. Is there any light that the sages of Probrewer.com can shed on this issue?

            Thanks in advance!
            I think you are on the right track. It is PBW film.

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            • #21
              Get your water mineral ion levels checked out. If for instance you have very hard water, particularly with large amounts of bicarbonate in it, then PBW may not have enough sequesterants to be able to dissolve / hold in solution all the mineral salts, and you may be depositing them. Because both the acids have phosphoric acid in them, this might be reacting with any deposited calcium to for insoluble calcium phosphate.

              The salts may be being deposited if you use cold unsoftened water for rinsing immediately after the hot PBW. I know from experience that this can leave calcium deposits over a period of time, from the thermal breakdown of calcium bicarbonate to less soluble calcium phosphate. Also, calcium sulphate is apparently slightly less soluble in hot water than cold water, so you may be getting a little calcium sulphate deposition as well

              Try using a pure nitric acid based detergent to remove the existing scale.

              Longer term, consider cleaning using acid, but with periodic, say monthly caustic (if necessary specially formulated for your water) cleans for protein removal.
              dick

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              • #22
                Could be water scaling, could be silica scaling, could be both (I think.) PBW is an alkali silicate based cleaner and with regular use will leave silica scaling (search that in google images - gross!)

                Acid (TA/KMS-10/whatever) will remove hard water scaling really well and silica scaling moderately well. Personally I prefer a chlorinated caustic to remove silica scaling.

                Acid should work. Nitric acid as per Dick's suggestion should as well. If at all possible I'd recommend giving Loeffler Chemical a call and strongly consider switching to them, that would be a tangible improvement.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by VoodooBrewery View Post
                  You should start a rinse before you empty the PBW wash allowing some pressure to build up, then open your drain, to get the residue from offen the inner skin of the vessel. This will reduce the amount of mineral stain in the vessel. Also PBW is not good with all water tables.
                  This is quite a common problem from customers using Sodium Metasilicate non-caustic cleaners. Fortunately, it is easy to fix and even easier to prevent. A 2.5% by volume solution of LERADES CSR at 120-130°F followed immediately by a potable water rinse will remove this scale.

                  When solutions of Sodium Metasilicate are allowed to dry, they leave behind a very stubborn silicate that is hard to remove by acid CIP. We always make the recommendation to rinse non-caustic cleaners immediately and do not allow them to dry on equipment. This includes soaking applications where small amounts of the solution can dry at the liquid level, forming a white ring. If you are soaking parts in non-caustic cleaners (or anything for that matter), make sure the part is fully submerged and that nothing is protruding from the liquid surface. As for soaking applications inside of vessels, I recommend against it.

                  Originally posted by dick murton View Post
                  Get your water mineral ion levels checked out. If for instance you have very hard water, particularly with large amounts of bicarbonate in it, then PBW may not have enough sequesterants to be able to dissolve / hold in solution all the mineral salts, and you may be depositing them. Because both the acids have phosphoric acid in them, this might be reacting with any deposited calcium to for insoluble calcium phosphate.

                  The salts may be being deposited if you use cold unsoftened water for rinsing immediately after the hot PBW. I know from experience that this can leave calcium deposits over a period of time, from the thermal breakdown of calcium bicarbonate to less soluble calcium phosphate. Also, calcium sulphate is apparently slightly less soluble in hot water than cold water, so you may be getting a little calcium sulphate deposition as well

                  Try using a pure nitric acid based detergent to remove the existing scale.

                  Longer term, consider cleaning using acid, but with periodic, say monthly caustic (if necessary specially formulated for your water) cleans for protein removal.
                  Generally, non-caustic cleaners like PBW, LERAPUR NC, etc. are sufficiently sequestered for most brewing water with the use of EDTA. While this is not as environmentally friendly as other sequesterants typically used in highly-formulated caustics, the use of a non-caustic cleaner should not impact the development of Calcium Oxalate (beerstone). Using non-sequestered alkaline cleaners, or cleaners insufficiently sequestered for your water hardness can contribute to Calcium and Magnesium (hard water) scale. Dick is right to trial a Nitric and / or Phosphoric Acid. If these scales are easily removed, it is most likely beerstone or hard water scale. However, I may recommend a Nitric-Phosphoric blend (Loeffler's LERACID K-MS 10 or LERACID KMS, Five Star's Acid #5 or Acid #6, Birko's Ultra Niter or Acid Bright #2, etcetera) as handling these products are easier than concentrated Nitric. If strong acid (3% by acid) cycles have no impact on these scales, it is time to eliminate non-caustic cleaners and graduate into commercial CIP products. Also, Sulfamic acid based products (216BSR) can be used at cool or ambient temperatures for severe beerstone and hardness scale, although don't use these as part of your regular acid CIP regimen.
                  Last edited by campbell.brian; 07-02-2015, 02:10 PM.
                  -BC

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