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Thread: Can finings undermine each other?

  1. #1
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    Can finings undermine each other?

    I typically use gelatin for yeast and Divergan F (aka Polyclar) for haze after crashing and before packaging. It would save some time and hassle if I could add them both at the same time, but I wonder whether, since they're oppositely charged, they would attract each other rather than the stuff they're supposed to attract.

    Does anyone add these two at the same time and get good results, or do I have to continue to add one one day and one the next day?

  2. #2
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    I'm not sure, but logic says that they would impede eachother.

  3. #3
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    Not sure about gelatin, but normal isinglass finings and polyclar can be mixed, so I assume this will work. The protein will remove the bulk of the protein particles and the yeast, but the polyclar removes tannins (anthocyanogens) which would otherwise combine with smaller "soluble" protein molecules which will form haze in long shelf life products.

    Also available commercially is a mix of lucilite (hydrated silica gel) and isinglass, the silica gel helping the isinglass to compact, and removing additional small protein molecules.

    Silica gel will be much cheaper than polyclar, and will produce pretty much the same haze reduction / shelf life improvement

    Cheers
    dick

  4. #4
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    the Brits add them seperatly. Just had a discussion with John Keeling about this. He talked a lot about "Primary" and "Secondary" finings. Clarifyer added first at racking, and then the isinglass was added as the casks left the building as the stuff only settles like 5 times....that way they could move the casks around without losing the effect.

  5. #5
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    What he is talking about here is the use of auxilliary finings and white (isinglass finings) Seperately there are also copper (kettle) finings. To minimise the protein haze, you need to go right back to the raw materials, the malt etc. This has to be milled, mashed and sparged correctly to minimise protein extraction, accepting of course that you need some to allow the yeast to grow, head retention, mouthfeel etc, but no so much, particularly the larger visible or just invisible haze forming material. The boil then needs to be a good vigorous one to coagulate excess protein and polysaccharides. If you add copper finings towards or at the end of the boil (according to the suppliers recommendations), this will help much of this settle out in the whilpool / hopback.

    Auxilliary finings can then be added just prior to transfer into final package and if thoroughly mixed in only needs to be added 15 / 30 seconds before isinglass is added, as the auxilliary works so rapidly. It helps coagulate residual fine proteins and polyphenols, making them easier to be trapped by the isinglass finings / yeast "mesh" as it settles - so producing clearer beer.

    Cheers
    dick

  6. #6
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    Hey Dick!

    Aux Fines are silica gel and some sort of poly sacharide blend, right? any idea who is distributing them in the U.S.? Got a brand / supplier? We do a fair amount of real ale and have had success with Kask Kleer paste, but I'd love to experiment with some aux fines


    Thanks,
    Larry

  7. #7
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    Auxilliary finings are normally only the polysaccharides. White (isinglass) finings can be supplied with silica gel mixed in. I believe this is approximately 10% silica gel, but you would need to verify this with a supplier. This is the rate we used with a fair degree of success a few years ago, but actually we were primarily looking to use the silica gel to compact the finings, the stabilisation aslect at that time was a minor factor.

    Now, not being based in the States, I am not sure who supplies the materials out there. Try AB Vickers in the UK, as I think they supply pretty much all over the world, and should be able to put in contact with a local distributor.

    Of course anyone out there who knows of a supplier.... I seem to remember the supplier topic coming up on this forum a while ago. The only two references I have found did not appear to supply finings.

    Web address for Vickers: www.abvickers.com

    Hope this helps

    Cheers
    dick

  8. #8
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    Does anybody use both silica gel and PVP? If so, how do you add them?

  9. #9
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    not really common to use both....if you take out one of the haze forming parts it can't complex.

    i do recall, however, that ISP was pimping a product a while back that claimed to do both....at least I think it was ISP.

  10. #10
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    People do use PVPP & silica gel, but really only for long shelf life products - bottles, cans, export beers. The usual procedure is to add silica gel on transfer from FV to maturation vessel, then use PVPP either mixed with the filter body feed, or in a stand alone regenerable filter system. Silica gel may also be added with the filter powder, but then you would definitely want to use PVPP in a separate filter. It is very expensive to use as one shot powder, but then again, a regen filter system isn't cheap either, so this option is really only viable for big users.

    Cheers
    dick

  11. #11
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    Thanks! ISP does indeed make a blended product called Polyclar Plus 730. Great!

    http://www.ispcorp.com/products/beve.../polyplus.html

  12. #12
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    Sweet, love to know how it works if you are planning a trial.

  13. #13
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    synstar

    Brewrs Supply Group sells something called Synstar that looks like the blend you are looking for. Its on their web site.
    Big Willey
    "You are what you is." FZ

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