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  • Glycol piping size?

    We are installing a new glycol system in the brewery to serve 4-10bbl and two 7bbl fermenters with possibility of adding a couple 20s in the future. Looking for recommendations on header/loop sizing and most cost effective piping/insulation combos for DIY installations. Currently the best option looks scheduled 80 with epdm foam insulation. Just wondering what everyone else has found.....


    Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
    Bill White
    Owner/Brewer
    White Flame Brewing Co.
    Hudsonville, MI
    bwhite@whiteflamebrewing.com

  • #2
    To the size, we went with 63mm or 2.5in inner diameter, total distance is around 180ft with a single supply header and a partial double return; first in last out etc... We just did this for our 15bbl brewery with 3FV and 6brites with expansion potential for two more FV; all 15bbl. We went with Cool Fit. Not Cool Fit Plus (insulated and shielded) or Cool Fit Lite (insulated only), just plain old Cool Fit; specialized ABS pipe. The cost difference between Schedule 80 and Cool Fit ABS only we close enough that we went for the more permanent solution, ABS. We installed it our selves and it was fairly simple; should you do this PM me and I will share what I can in more detail. Only complaint is that the various Cool Fit lines are not compatible, odd.
    First time, Long time.
    Matchless Brewing
    Three Magnets Brewing
    Olympia WA

    Comment


    • #3
      Glycol piping size?

      Thanks for the input. Couple questions.

      What size chiller/bath/pump system did you go with? Seems like a 2-1/2" loop might be difficult to push?


      Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
      Bill White
      Owner/Brewer
      White Flame Brewing Co.
      Hudsonville, MI
      bwhite@whiteflamebrewing.com

      Comment


      • #4
        Total BBL on the system

        2.5" is extremely large for that size of system.
        You can run 600 BBL on 2".
        Warren Turner
        Industrial Engineering Technician
        HVACR-Electrical Systems Specialist
        Moab Brewery
        The Thought Police are Attempting to Suppress Free Speech and Sugar coat everything. This is both Cowardice and Treason given to their own kind.

        Comment


        • #5
          Thanks Warren, my mind has been on OD not ID lately, been insulating the headers lately. The ID of the 63mm ABS is 53mm or 2in.

          Bill, we went with the 7.5hp ChilStar from Prochiller. It has a 2hp pump and a 20galon bath. If we were to do it all over again we would go with a MA series chiller, better expansion capabilities and a larger bath. That said, our supply side glycol pressure runs at a fairly consistent 30psi at the pressure bypass and we can drop temp a couple degrees F per hour. Been happy with the system.
          First time, Long time.
          Matchless Brewing
          Three Magnets Brewing
          Olympia WA

          Comment


          • #6
            Hi,
            The recommendations from ASHRAE and also what all engineering companies use as a design for the piping system is to have a velocity in the pipes of 5 ft./second or less, and if you have variable speed pumps 7.5 ft./second.
            This to:
            Minimize pressure drops
            Minimize water hammers
            Minimize noise
            Get an energy efficient system

            So check what your fermenters need in flow rate to do the job and then tally up the maximum required flow and we can help you calculate what pipe size needed. If your supplier of the fermenters and bright tank can't tell you what flow rate that is needed there are an "in-between the thumbs" rule that works rather good and that is that you will need about 10 gpm / jacket for a fermenter and 5 gpm /jacket for a bright tank.
            So if your fermenter have 3 jackets you will need a flow of 30 gpm, this is if you parallel feed your fermenter (which is recommended) and if you serial feed your fermenter it will need 10 gpm.

            Here is a note on serial feed vs. parallel feed. Parallel feed = all your jackets are getting the same temperature glycol. Serial feed = you cone jacket will get the coldest glycol and then it will warm up so that your top jackets will have the warmest glycol

            Now you need to estimate how many of your jackets will be calling for cooling at once so that you know maximum required flow rate for the header piping

            Below you can see how many gpm's you can get through COOL-FIT pipes in different sizes at a velocity of 5 ft./s and 7.5 ft./s
            Click image for larger version

Name:	Flow.jpg
Views:	1
Size:	28.1 KB
ID:	190506


            An explanation of the different COOL-FIT pipes (all can handle media with temperatures down to -58F)
            COOL-FIT ABS = un-insulated
            COOL-FIT ABS Lite = pre-insulated with 1" thick or 1.5" thick Armaflex insulation
            COOL-FIT ABS Plus = pre-insulated with high density closed cell polyurethane foam and with a thick PE jacket = maintenance free system

            Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions or need more information.

            Cheers!

            P.S if anyone need entrance tickets to the Brau exhibition in Nurnberg Europe November 11 to 13 please let me know.

            Dan Strömberg
            Cooling Market Segment Manager
            Georg Fischer LLC
            Phone: +1 714 368 4196
            Fax: +1 714 368 4197
            Mobile: +1 951 642 2339
            Dan.Stromberg@georgfischer.com

            GF Piping Systems
            9271 Jeronimo Rd., Irvine, CA. 92618
            United States
            GF Piping Systems is the leading flow solutions provider across the world. We enable the safe and sustainable transport of fluids. Our business is driven by maintaining industry-leading sustainability levels, innovating through digitally enabled solutions, and investing in a culture built on performance, learning, and caring.
            Last edited by dast; 10-06-2014, 11:11 AM.

            Comment


            • #7
              How does this work with coils?

              Originally posted by dast View Post
              Hi,
              The recommendations from ASHRAE and also what all engineering companies use as a design for the piping system is to have a velocity in the pipes of 5 ft./second or less, and if you have variable speed pumps 7.5 ft./second.
              This to:
              Minimize pressure drops
              Minimize water hammers
              Minimize noise
              Get an energy efficient system

              So check what your fermenters need in flow rate to do the job and then tally up the maximum required flow and we can help you calculate what pipe size needed. If your supplier of the fermenters and bright tank can't tell you what flow rate that is needed there are an "in-between the thumbs" rule that works rather good and that is that you will need about 10 gpm / jacket for a fermenter and 5 gpm /jacket for a bright tank.
              So if your fermenter have 3 jackets you will need a flow of 30 gpm, this is if you parallel feed your fermenter (which is recommended) and if you serial feed your fermenter it will need 10 gpm.

              Here is a note on serial feed vs. parallel feed. Parallel feed = all your jackets are getting the same temperature glycol. Serial feed = you cone jacket will get the coldest glycol and then it will warm up so that your top jackets will have the warmest glycol

              Now you need to estimate how many of your jackets will be calling for cooling at once so that you know maximum required flow rate for the header piping

              Below you can see how many gpm's you can get through COOL-FIT pipes in different sizes at a velocity of 5 ft./s and 7.5 ft./s
              [ATTACH]19421[/ATTACH]


              An explanation of the different COOL-FIT pipes (all can handle media with temperatures down to -58F)
              COOL-FIT ABS = un-insulated
              COOL-FIT ABS Lite = pre-insulated with 1" thick or 1.5" thick Armaflex insulation
              COOL-FIT ABS Plus = pre-insulated with high density closed cell polyurethane foam and with a thick PE jacket = maintenance free system

              Please don't hesitate to contact me if you have any questions or need more information.

              Cheers!

              P.S if anyone need entrance tickets to the Brau exhibition in Nurnberg Europe November 11 to 13 please let me know.

              Dan Strömberg
              Cooling Market Segment Manager
              Georg Fischer LLC
              Phone: +1 714 368 4196
              Fax: +1 714 368 4197
              Mobile: +1 951 642 2339
              Dan.Stromberg@georgfischer.com

              GF Piping Systems
              9271 Jeronimo Rd., Irvine, CA. 92618
              United States
              www.gfps.com/us
              We are planning on 6 - 7 barrel plastic fermenters with 50' of 1/2" or 3/4" SS coil in each and one jacketed bright. Our plan was to have an 1 1/2" PEX or sched 80 pvc header with a first in/last out return circuit. The drops would be 3/4" PEX to quick disconnects and the coil through the lid for removal and cleaning. We are trying to work backwards on this to build the right system and then size the chiller to it and leave room for expansion. With that in mind i had a few questions:

              1. Where can I find information on flow rates for the SS coil mentioned above?

              2. When the temp controller senses the need for cooling and opens the valve to allow the glycol to flow does the pump sense the change in pressure and pump harder to make up for the new open circuit(s) or is there enough flow resistance to maintain pressure in the system when fermenters are being cooled?

              3. In the spirit of the 1st question, should the return circuit be sized smaller to increase flow resistance in order to maintain a pressure gradient on the feed side of the system? ie. 1 1/2" header - 3/4" drops - 1" return circuit?

              4. We are looking at temp controllers hooked to solenoid or ball valves to control each fermenter individually (we are planning on a lager in our initial line up).

              5. Anything we are missing?

              I attached a picture to illustrate how we will (possibly) position our fermenters. For scale the building is 20' wide and 45' long.

              Click image for larger version

Name:	Brewery Vairant.jpg
Views:	1
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ID:	190626

              In full disclosure this is what the building looks like now. We still have to pull out 3/4 of the floor to open up the space below and make room for the mezzanine above the fermenters.

              Click image for larger version

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Views:	1
Size:	97.6 KB
ID:	190627Click image for larger version

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Views:	1
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ID:	190628

              thanks.

              Bill
              Oddball Brewing Co.
              Pembroke NH
              Bill Walden
              Oddball Brewing Co.
              Suncook, NH

              Comment


              • #8
                Bill,

                Any follow up / tips on what you ended up doing for chilling your plastic ferms? Did you go with the 1.5" PEX with 0.75" drops? What size chiller did you use?

                I'd love to hear about this setup.

                Steve



                Originally posted by bwalden234 View Post
                We are planning on 6 - 7 barrel plastic fermenters with 50' of 1/2" or 3/4" SS coil in each and one jacketed bright. Our plan was to have an 1 1/2" PEX or sched 80 pvc header with a first in/last out return circuit. The drops would be 3/4" PEX to quick disconnects and the coil through the lid for removal and cleaning. We are trying to work backwards on this to build the right system and then size the chiller to it and leave room for expansion. With that in mind i had a few questions:

                1. Where can I find information on flow rates for the SS coil mentioned above?

                2. When the temp controller senses the need for cooling and opens the valve to allow the glycol to flow does the pump sense the change in pressure and pump harder to make up for the new open circuit(s) or is there enough flow resistance to maintain pressure in the system when fermenters are being cooled?

                3. In the spirit of the 1st question, should the return circuit be sized smaller to increase flow resistance in order to maintain a pressure gradient on the feed side of the system? ie. 1 1/2" header - 3/4" drops - 1" return circuit?

                4. We are looking at temp controllers hooked to solenoid or ball valves to control each fermenter individually (we are planning on a lager in our initial line up).

                5. Anything we are missing?

                I attached a picture to illustrate how we will (possibly) position our fermenters. For scale the building is 20' wide and 45' long.

                [ATTACH]20204[/ATTACH]

                In full disclosure this is what the building looks like now. We still have to pull out 3/4 of the floor to open up the space below and make room for the mezzanine above the fermenters.

                [ATTACH]20205[/ATTACH][ATTACH]20206[/ATTACH]

                thanks.

                Bill
                Oddball Brewing Co.
                Pembroke NH

                Comment

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