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  • Sewer Charges For Start Up

    Hi Everybody-

    I contacted my local Public Works department to get an estimate for sewer charges the City might put on a new, small brewery (~3500sf) with tap room and got what I consider a huge number. They estimate it will be between $16k-$25k, with the difference being 50 vs 75 seats. This is assuming the existing use of the building is a warehouse and the future use is a brewery (which for sewer fee sake, they classify as a restaurant/cafeteria). If this is correct, it may rule out this city as a location.

    Can anybody pass along their experiences with sewer charges and how their City classifies breweries?

    Thanks,

    John

    I should note that they made this determination without even knowing the size of the equipment - my plan is 7bbl, but for all they know, it could be 30bbl.
    Last edited by jgmjackson; 11-06-2014, 10:58 AM.

  • #2
    Charges

    Hey,

    I think your number is a bit high, we run a 87 seat bar/restaurant/brewpub and we are sub $250 a month on our sewer charges. Water bill is another subject, but just for sewer charges that is rather large.

    Comment


    • #3
      We got a 10bbl system into a 5000sf building for $8000. Have your sewer department talk to Livermore, CA department. They might be able to get it reduced for you.

      Comment


      • #4
        Thanks, guys. Yeah, my heart stopped for a second when I saw those numbers. I am trying to get further explanation from the Public Works folks since it seems pretty obvious that this isn't something they have dealt with before. They calculate it using a gallon per seat number of 50, multiplying that by the number of seats, then multiplying that by a per gallon rate of $6-$7.

        To clarify, this is the one-time fee from the Public Works department upon start up and change of use.

        John

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        • #5
          Originally posted by jgmjackson View Post
          Thanks, guys. Yeah, my heart stopped for a second when I saw those numbers. I am trying to get further explanation from the Public Works folks since it seems pretty obvious that this isn't something they have dealt with before. They calculate it using a gallon per seat number of 50, multiplying that by the number of seats, then multiplying that by a per gallon rate of $6-$7.

          To clarify, this is the one-time fee from the Public Works department upon start up and change of use.

          John
          Don't be afraid to push back. My town was going to assess me a $11,000 fee for my nanobrewery until it was understood they were using a volume for a 'brewery' and not something of a smaller scale. I made no bones about it and made sure my followers on Facebook knew what was happening. Next council meeting: boom, gone. We're good until it can be determined we're exceeding our current allocation of use. Which we won't...
          Kevin Shertz
          Chester River Brewing Company
          Chestertown, MD

          Comment


          • #6
            I have received a new determination and estimate for the one-time sewer facility charge and things are not going in the right direction. The estimate for a 3500sf brewery (broken down as 2200sf brewery, 1300sf tap room) is about $18k.

            They are figuring the fee based on their restaurant standard of 1000 gallons of waste water per day per 1000sf of space. In other words, for a 2300sf brewery area, that is 2300 gallons of waste water per day. If I am producing 4000bbl a year, that makes sense, but if I'm producing 500bbl in year 1, that is substantially overkill and is a painful fee to have as a start up. For the tap room, they are using 350 gallons per 1000sf.

            How are other cities that you are working with determining waste water quantities?

            Comment


            • #7
              Our city bases the sewer fees (ongoing, not start-up) on water usage, and it has been attempting to raise these fees to the point where many businesses (hotels, restaurants, us, etc) would have to fold up or move. The local business community has been doing a good job of keeping a presence at the city council meetings, and have so far kept the fees within liveable (barely) limits.

              Organize with other businesses. Remind your city council that there are plenty of communities that would welcome your business--it helps if you can actually cite a few of these.

              Good luck. It seems many communities, especially small ones, aren't on the bus when it comes to encouraging small businesses and the economic growth we can bring.
              Timm Turrentine

              Brewerywright,
              Terminal Gravity Brewing,
              Enterprise. Oregon.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by TGTimm View Post
                Our city bases the sewer fees (ongoing, not start-up) on water usage, and it has been attempting to raise these fees to the point where many businesses (hotels, restaurants, us, etc) would have to fold up or move. The local business community has been doing a good job of keeping a presence at the city council meetings, and have so far kept the fees within liveable (barely) limits.

                Organize with other businesses. Remind your city council that there are plenty of communities that would welcome your business--it helps if you can actually cite a few of these.

                Good luck. It seems many communities, especially small ones, aren't on the bus when it comes to encouraging small businesses and the economic growth we can bring.
                A looming issue for many small breweries in many municipalities. It has broken into the news on the west coast here in Canada.

                The looming reality is that the polluter will pay for the actual cost of treating their effluent based on some pretty standard formulae connected (largely) to BOD/COD and TSS and volume. pH and temperature are/can be deal breakers.

                If this is not prevalent in your municipality, it soon will be.

                And, IMHO, it should be. Our water is not infinite. Nor is the depth of municipal tax bases.

                Prepare yourselves. The actual cost is much larger than many pay currently.

                Externalizing your costs to your neighbours is just wrong.

                Pax.

                Liam
                Liam McKenna
                www.yellowbellybrewery.com

                Comment


                • #9
                  We are not polluters. Polluters dump their effluent directly into the stream out back. We are users of the municipal waste treatment plant, and we pay our dues. We maintain a good relationship with the folks that operate the waste treatment plant, and actively work with them to keep things going as well as possible.

                  Additionally, we represent an infrastructure called "employers". If you need a job, you need an employer, just as you need roads if you need cars. Some of our communities seem to be forgetting this. The next town up the road has concentrated on reducing taxes to attract retirees, and cannot now maintain their roads. I've seen better back streets in Tijuana! The same town now has been reduced to service and tourist businesses--nothing is produced there. But, boy, are the taxes low!

                  If the companies that employ locals must bear the entire burden of supporting the local infrastructure, and, at the same time, compete with companies that have support from their communities, well, go figure. And take a look at Main Street, Enterprise, Oregon, which has many more empty storefronts than full.

                  I'm not talking socialism here, I'm talking community pride and the basic reason that we live in communities--to pool our resources and keep the barbarians at bay.
                  Timm Turrentine

                  Brewerywright,
                  Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                  Enterprise. Oregon.

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    They are using restaurant numbers for your capacity fees. I had the same problem starting out. The problem is, they only have one way to do it. We ended up going with the minimum number of seats allowed to get a beer permit, and they based the water capacity fees off that. Then we put in as many seats as we could later on closer to opening.
                    Linus Hall
                    Yazoo Brewing
                    Nashville, TN
                    www.yazoobrew.com

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