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  • Measuring wort volume going into fermenter

    Hello,
    I was wondering if anyone knew of a good method for accurately measuring the volume of wort post-KO going into the fermenter. I thought about using a paddle flow meter but figured the viscosity and any trub/hop particles would throw off the accuracy. An ultrasonic flow meter seemed to be a good option but the manufacturer told me point blank that it would not work for this application. I would like to avoid putting a sight tube on the fermenters so any suggestions would be helpful.
    Cheers!

  • #2
    Originally posted by dvdphllps View Post
    Hello,
    I was wondering if anyone knew of a good method for accurately measuring the volume of wort post-KO going into the fermenter. I thought about using a paddle flow meter but figured the viscosity and any trub/hop particles would throw off the accuracy. An ultrasonic flow meter seemed to be a good option but the manufacturer told me point blank that it would not work for this application. I would like to avoid putting a sight tube on the fermenters so any suggestions would be helpful.
    Cheers!
    This came up a few months ago: http://discussions.probrewer.com/sho...-sensor-choice

    A totalizing flowmeter could work, but once the beer is in the fermenter, you won't know the level (e.g. after blowoff). But if you're only interested in the initial volume, a magnetic flowmeter would work, and it doesn't care about viscosity or trub. The can be very pricey, but this one might do for you, depending on the flow rate you have:


    Otherwise, I'd probably go with a level measurement instead. In that previous thread, I suggested pressure sensors to get to level, but these aren't probably accurate enough for your case. However, if you're not as concerned with accuracy, this might be an easy way to go.

    You could use a non-contact ultrasonic sensor in a tri-clamp port at the top of the fermenter, but this will not be effective if there is foam, which is likely in a fermenter. For example:


    Capacitive continuous level probes might work, though I haven't tried one in beer before. I doubt you could calibrate accurately for the liquid/foam interface.

    A load cell(s) weighing the tank would be a good way, but probably not worthwhile for a fermenter.

    The most accurate would probably be a magnetorestrictive level measurement. This works with beer/foam, and you can get sanitary devices. These can actually measure both the liquid level and the foam level at the same time. These work with a rod that sticks down into the vessel, and there are floats on it, and the rod measures the float position. For example:

    If you don't need to measure the whole tank, just know the volume when it's near to full, you could install a shorter version of one of these.

    Another route, that doesn't use the float, but still has a rod is one of the RF/Electromagnetic probes. These can be optimized for either foam or liquid. Still, it's in contact with the liquid, but then so is the tank wall. For example this one: http://www.anderson-negele.com/us/p/level-sensors/ln/
    I think CPE Systems is a distributor for them.

    Regards,
    Mike Sharp
    Last edited by rdcpro; 01-08-2016, 04:27 PM.

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    • #3
      Originally posted by dvdphllps View Post
      Hello,
      I was wondering if anyone knew of a good method for accurately measuring the volume of wort post-KO going into the fermenter. I thought about using a paddle flow meter but figured the viscosity and any trub/hop particles would throw off the accuracy. An ultrasonic flow meter seemed to be a good option but the manufacturer told me point blank that it would not work for this application. I would like to avoid putting a sight tube on the fermenters so any suggestions would be helpful.
      Cheers!
      Wy do you want to avoid a sight glass?

      -Christian

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      • #4
        Ditto?

        Are you concerned that a sight tube is less accurate than an electronic piece of kit? I wouldn't trade the reliability and accuracy of a sight tube for an expensive gadget that will be obsolete and out of calibration much faster than a piece of tube. Not a permanent tube, but at least one that can be attached to the zwickel, used, rinsed, and put away after use. I like KISS.
        Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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        • #5
          Kettle Volume Sight Tube?

          Why not use your Kettle volume and the finished beer volume to BBT to measure your losses and adjust KO, yeast harvest, draining protocol from there.

          Lance

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          • #6
            Thank you all or the input. Recent addition of 120 bbl fermenters is the reason I would like to avoid the addition a sight tube, the fewer trips to the top the better. I like the idea of the magnetic flow meter. That seems to be the most simple solution.

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            • #7
              Many years ago I calibrated a pice of plastic pipe with a hook on it to each of the fermenters. Then I zip tied a piece of tubing to the stick and sanitized it and the sample cock. hook the tube to it, let it fill and read the level. If you have a really big fermenter you could put a valve at the bottom to preserve the height and pull it down to read.

              I then used a GPI flow meter inline during transfer and never had an issue with it either.

              Low tech, High Tech. Your choice
              Mike Pensinger
              General Manager/Brewmaster
              Parkway Brewing Company
              Salem, VA

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              • #8
                FWIW we have one 20bbl FV that has a sight glass on it. 1/2" valve is too small to not get gunked with hops and yeast, so while you can get an original volume well enough, once it starts fermenting it just clogs up and you end up with a plugged tube that's hard to clean. So we don't use it when using that FV as a fermenter, but we use it as a brite sometimes and when doing that we open the sight glass and use it just fine.

                I'd go for the flow meter.
                Russell Everett
                Co-Founder / Head Brewer
                Bainbridge Island Brewing
                Bainbridge Island, WA

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                • #9
                  do you do the same for sparge amounts?

                  Phil do you also prefer sight glasses for measuring sarge quantities?


                  Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
                  Are you concerned that a sight tube is less accurate than an electronic piece of kit? I wouldn't trade the reliability and accuracy of a sight tube for an expensive gadget that will be obsolete and out of calibration much faster than a piece of tube. Not a permanent tube, but at least one that can be attached to the zwickel, used, rinsed, and put away after use. I like KISS.

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                  • #10
                    and what about yeast transfers.....

                    Do you use flow meters for more precision based smaller quanity transfers like yeast?

                    Best
                    Todd

                    Originally posted by gitchegumee View Post
                    Are you concerned that a sight tube is less accurate than an electronic piece of kit? I wouldn't trade the reliability and accuracy of a sight tube for an expensive gadget that will be obsolete and out of calibration much faster than a piece of tube. Not a permanent tube, but at least one that can be attached to the zwickel, used, rinsed, and put away after use. I like KISS.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Some thoughts on KISS....

                      Sight tubes are fairly standard practice. One would never use a 1/2" threaded, reduced-port ball valve for this application--not that the previous poster does. Threads are not allowed on a sanitary tank. Neither are ball valves. There are valves made specifically for this application that TriClamp into place on the drain line and the CIP line. They may be isolated and the tube drained and even cleaned while fermenter full and pressurized. Otherwise, they self clean during CIP.
                      Helps to take them apart to fully clean each part similar to the way you take apart sample valves to clean them. They are accurate enough for recording knockout volumes and for government reporting. I've never had one clog. They are not expensive.

                      That said, there is no way that I'd use one for yeast dosing. I wouldn't consider direct cone-to-cone pitching under any circumstances. I know that many do and they might make great beer. But there are certainly better methods if your goal is consistency. My standard practice in a small brewery would be to dump tank bottoms until I have selected yeast I want to harvest. This best done IMO with a peristaltic pump to slowly pull cone contents down. Then pull yeast for next pitch into sanitized container. Mix and/or acid wash to deflocculate and homogenize. Count yeast to determine dose. Weigh as you pump into fermenter, or alternatively with peristaltic pump, merely time the peristaltic pitch for perfectly consistent yeast counts.

                      Regarding sparge measurements; I've found the best way to track water added to the brewhouse is to use globe valves on hot and cold water--usually one size smaller than water line. The two tee together and pass through a static mixer. On the upward vertical about 10 diameters downstream I use a lovely little flow transmitter from Proteus--no affiliation. I've installed 6 of these with oldest now 6 years old. They are very accurate, very easy to use, rugged, and quite inexpensive. Good customer service, too. The V7000 series is unmatched. These allow you to place a flow rate indicator/flow totalizer meter on your control panel and control your water additions with very high precision. It's the cat's meow. Best of luck!
                      Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

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                      • #12
                        I have a similar problem. I have some larger tanks 20HL fitted with tubes to show the level. They do get clogged after fermentation and are only really useful when firt filling them with wort. I also have two smaller fermenters that have no don't have any sight tube and I use these for tests or small batches, typically transferring wort from a larger tank to these small ones. The small fermenters open at the top so I can open and eyeball the right level, but if transferring already fermented beer its hard to eyeball due to the foam created, thus it would be much better to find another cheap way to measure the volume. I have tried a cheap flow meter that didn't do the job.

                        Would it not be possible to measure the volume transferred based on the pressure in the head space of the tank. It seems to me that if the overall volume of the target tank is know there should be some formula to calculate what the target vessels head space pressure would be after having transferred a certain volume? It might complicate things if there is already co2 dissolved in the beer being transferred, but if the co2 level is known it should also be possible to account for? Does someone know if this is possible to calculate?

                        Peter

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