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How many of you use decoction?

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  • #16
    Decoction use

    Then to answer your question, yes, the brewery I am planning will utilize decoction.
    Last edited by pennbrew2; 08-01-2006, 03:03 PM.

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    • #17
      I've brewed both ways. the "Decotion character" can be replicated without decocting. We don't use decoction any more.

      Better for efficiency and finished gravity is a ramping infusion mash. It's also quicker and uses less energy. There is a reason German brewers aren't using this old practice as much any more....

      Deutch-o-files will say you can't make german beer without decoction...but I'd say the Germans would argue against it (if they were even to tell anyone they are quitting doing it!)

      traditional 'decocted' beers are generally higher in gravity, ibus and specialty malt than light lagers.

      my $0.02
      Larry Horwitz

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      • #18
        Germany and Czech Republic

        In Germany, decoction is "falling by the wayside" because there's no reason for it, especially when brewing a Pils. With today's highly modified malts, you're only damaging the beer and compromising its shelf-life by using decoction. Pilsner Urquell does a triple decoction. Why? Tradition. They do a lot of other things for tradition's sake. Remember that Pilsner Urquell is very dark for a Pilsner, but, like Schneider Weisse, it was the first, so no one argues with them about it. Although a great beer, one of the classics, the shelf-life of Pilsner Urquell is not something I'd want to emulate. Their beer definitely tastes best at the brewery, but that's the case with a lot of beers. The fresher and less-traveled, the better. (I don't want to single them out; someone above used them as an example.)

        There are also a lot of little Bavarian breweries who only sell their beer within a small radius of their brewery and don't have to contend with an extreme climate. The beer's drunk within three months and rarely sees temperatures over 80 C. Each summer the quality of the beers in one of the great brewing cities in Franconia suffers, because the brewers there still aren't used to dealing with brewing year round. Their traditions all date back to a time when brewing was done from only September to March.

        Yes, I understand that this was a only a poll. However, what I'm getting at is that (unlike American brewers) European brewers are an extremely conservative lot – very traditionally-minded. That’s why they’re still doing decoction, among other things. They are often instinctively opposed to change, which has for the most part been good and preserved a lot of wonderful Old World styles. Most, who are willing to try something new and read the latest research in the periodicals, understand that decoction isn't necessary and is costly in today's energy economy.

        Having said that, I've brewed beers using a single decoction (beers that were going to be consumed rather quickly and would only be packaged in kegs), because I felt it might enhance the flavor of the particular style (Altbier, Bock). I definitely would not use it for a delicate Pils, though. There are many other factors to consider when brewing Old World beers. In my humble opinion, it’d be best to eliminate those first, then worry about whether to use decoction or infusion.

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        • #19
          shelf life length?

          Where do you get your shelf life numbers?
          A decocotion at worst would have less oxidation than a infusion mash, unless you handle the mash roughly!
          A pils has no malt character so no need for decoction and they filter it to remove proteins that would have been reduced in a proper mash temp! Filtration oxidizes the beer also!
          They changed because cheaper is always better! That is why I eat at MacDonald's all the time, because it is cheap (it sucks)!
          I make beer to make it better not CHEAPER. If you are worried about working too hard you are just too lazy!
          Doug A Moller
          Brewmaster
          The Moller Brew House
          (405)226-3111

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          • #20
            Okay Doug, I was with you 100% until the end there... you don't really eat at McDonald's, do you?
            Last edited by Sir Brewsalot; 08-08-2006, 02:59 PM.

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            • #21
              Live Oaks

              If I recall correctly Live Oaks in Austin, Texas is presently 100% decoction, check them out. http://www.liveoakbrewing.com/
              Mark Duchow
              Brew Master
              Short Fuse Brewing Co.
              Chicagoland
              "The best beer is FREE beer"

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              • #22
                Whoa… Is there a new religion I’m unaware of? “The Church of New Decoctionists” or something? I don’t mean to step on anyone’s toes.

                Wort is hot during mashing and being pumped around. This results in oxidation regardless of how carefully you work, unless you've somehow rigged your brewhouse to work under a nitrogen atmosphere. Hot-side aeration is detrimental to beer quality. No debating that point. (A few big breweries in Germany lauter under nitrogen, but I don’t know of a brewery that decoction mashes under nitrogen.) There’s a reaction called the Maillard reaction, which comes into play here: Too much “thermal stress” to the wort is detremental to the beer’s shelf-life. The mechanical stress on the malt makes lautering more difficult and less effective. This is detrimental to the flavor of the fresh beer, and it gets worse with age. Earlier, the advantage of decoction was that poorly modified malt was opened up as it was boiled, exposing more surface area for the enzymes to do their work. In the late 19th and early 20th centuries, the barley they used would now only be used to feed animals. Malts are rarely poorly modified anymore; if anything, the opposite is true.

                Of the breweries still using decoction in Europe, usually all of their beers are decocted including their Pils. (And, yes a good Pils should have some malt character but shouldn’t be overwhelming or harsh. As with any beer, the balance is everything. Pilsner Urquell has malt character in great abundance – admittedly more so than most). Some of my favorite old breweries in Bavaria and the Czech Republic still double, sometimes even triple, decoct everything. But as Pennbrew2 stated above: "German brewers do a lot of things differently than US brewers...It's fruitless to argue that decoction is or isn't the magic bullet." Decoction is a minor part of the whole when comparing US and middle European brewing methods.

                Doug, I’m not sure who “they” are or what you’re getting at here:

                ”…and they filter it to remove proteins that would have been reduced in a proper mash temp!... They changed because cheaper is always better!”

                Filtration shouldn’t be exposing your beer to oxygen. Besides, if oxygen were in the filter, the beer should be very cold, anyway. At filtration temperatures oxygen dissolves in beer but doesn’t oxidize it much at all. (Of course, later in the pasteurizer or bottle the oxygen picked up during filtration would oxidize the beer, that’s why your filter should be purged of oxygen beforehand.)

                I hadn’t referred to decoction on the home-brewery scale (or even when brewing the one-off seasonal in a brewpub), when discussing energy costs. If you want to quadruple decoct your next Christmas double bock at home, the extra amount of fuel you’ll need to run your gumbo cooker is nominal. If you operate a reasonbly-sized brewery (esp. one in Europe), fuel prices are something to consider, not to mention the additional time (most breweries do multiple brews per day).

                Yes, there are those beers which might benefit from decoction, including Live Oak's "Pilz". Many years ago I was in the same homebrew club as the brewers who started Live Oak. Their beers have always been good including their [double decoction?] Pils, which is modelled after the meatier Pilsner Urquell variety not the Upper Bavarian "skinny" ones. Considering it from the standpoint that many German brewers do, if a process results in no or few minor advantages and can result in some fairly major disadvantages plus costing you more time and money, why would you do it? Better quality, including a longer shelf-life, has everything to do with why brewers are moving away from decoction. Laziness has never really figured into it, although it is true that Germans are pushing for a shorter work week…
                Last edited by crassbrauer; 08-09-2006, 03:46 AM.

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                • #23
                  I agree that decoction is not the magic bullet and Germans do many things differently. It is but one small peice of the puzzle. I like the statement that German brewers are conservative and do many things due to tradition. One point I like to make is that if you are trying to brew a traditional Germanic style of beer, I think it's cool to utilize as many of the traditional brewing techniques that your brewery can handle. Decoction perhaps being one of many. Other techniques and factors may include grist bill, boil length, hop selection, yeast selection and handling, pitching amount, fermentation temp, lagering length, krausen / natural carbonation, filtration or no, ect...

                  I just hate to think of brewing beer in black or white terms. Would you brew a Belgian-style beer as you would an English-stye ale with the exception of yeast strain? How about brewing a German-style lager the same as you would and English-style ale? I just think its cool to manipulate the brewing process accordingly, not just the recipe. Decoction is one such manipulation.

                  As for lazziness, it does factor in. Perhaps not in Germany but in this country I have seen many brewers happy to shave time off their brew day by not doing a decoction. Even earlier in this thread people bitched about time length of such a technique.

                  And to answer my part of the origional question, yes I decoc one year round beer and many seasonal beers. I take it as a matter of pride. And btw, I like it when threads meander away from the initial question as it shows some opinions related to the subject and it keeps it interesting.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by Sir Brewsalot
                    Okay Doug, I was with you 100% until the end there... you don't really eat at McDonald's, do you?
                    That was a joke.
                    Doug A Moller
                    Brewmaster
                    The Moller Brew House
                    (405)226-3111

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                    • #25
                      One important point about Middle European vs. English mashing just for purposes of clarification:

                      English brewers, as a rule, haven’t heard of decoction and most often only mash at one temperature (unless they’re brewing a lager, which isn’t a native style).

                      German/Czech/Austrian brewers sometimes use decoction but never mash at one temperature. Without decoction there are still always several different rests. So, to them the only difference between infusion and decoction is boiling the thick third of the mash, instead of stepping it up all together.

                      It must be remembered that fine control of heat or the media for carrying heat is relatively new to brewing. That’s why there were traditionally two vessels for mashing: the insulated mash tun and the heated mash kettle (mostly direct-fired with gas or wood). With today’s fine control of heat transfer media (steam/hot water) along with better quality malt, decoction has become superfluous. This is considered an improvement. The multiple rests remain for obvious reasons (temperature optima of the various enzymes). The need to boil the mash no longer exists, because it doesn't result in an increase in the fermentable sugars in the wort as it once did. The only reason to do it nowadays is to try to brew a beer with a "decoction" taste.

                      Therefore, not using decoction does not mean English-style mashing. There’s still a big difference in the mashing methods.

                      (I didn’t include Belgian-style brewing here, because, as with most aspects of brewing they’re sort of all over the spectrum.)
                      Last edited by crassbrauer; 08-09-2006, 12:05 PM.

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                      • #26
                        **bump**

                        I'm interested in hearing a little more from this thread...

                        I used to do decoction in the last brew pub I worked at, but I don't have the capability to do it at my new gig. Personally, I miss it terribly. My Oktoberfest this year paled in comparison to the beautiful double-decocted brews I used to make. Not to say it was bad, it was one of our customer's favorites of all time (they'd never tasted my old batches), but it lacked the rich warmth and big mouthfeel of the batches I'm used to.

                        That said, I have never packaged, so I've never had a shelf-life problem. It has always sold out in 3 weeks max.

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                        • #27
                          Wow talk about reviving an old thread!

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                          • #28
                            Seems you already have decided...

                            Originally posted by blonberg View Post
                            I'm interested in hearing a little more from this thread...

                            I used to do decoction in the last brew pub I worked at, but I don't have the capability to do it at my new gig. Personally, I miss it terribly. My Oktoberfest this year paled in comparison to the beautiful double-decocted brews I used to make. Not to say it was bad, it was one of our customer's favorites of all time (they'd never tasted my old batches), but it lacked the rich warmth and big mouthfeel of the batches I'm used to.

                            That said, I have never packaged, so I've never had a shelf-life problem. It has always sold out in 3 weeks max.

                            Well, it seems that you've already decided that decoction is for you...so what are you asking? Did you modify your recipe to take into account a single infusion mash?
                            cheers
                            Larry Horwitz

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                            • #29
                              Yes, I did do some work on my recipe, including some Munich Dark malt to try to make up for a little of the loss of color, mouthfeel, and cereal flavor of no boil (I tend to shoot my specifics towards the export style of Oktoberfest beers in terms of color and abv, and keep my Maibocks lighter in color and more traditional for what you'd find in Germany).

                              I was reverting to the original question, about how many other people are using the method, and I guess also wondering if others think it is worth it as well. Since I have no other option, I'm not doing it now. I've heard, word of mouth, that my previous brew pub was one of the only brew pubs or breweries in Minnesota that had a German setup and routinely did decoction for seasonal beers, but since my move to Michigan, it isn't so rare (again, word of mouth). Just a little census of brewing practices.

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                              • #30
                                Most of the breweries I know aren't set up in a way to be able to do decoction mashing. Out of about 12 breweries that I've gotten to see the equipment up close and personal I've only seen one set up to be able to do decoction mashes. And surprise surprise the owner that paid for the equipment is also the head brewer.

                                That being said most of the breweries I've visited in Germany have stopped doing decoction mashes themselves. They do use multiple steps in the mash (usually using a heated mash mixer and a separate dedicated lauter)
                                Manuel

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