Juicy Hops - Summit turned on me

[Alphaacid]

I'm looking for a really juicy combo of hops. The first time I used Summit hops they were awesome, came out nice orange/tangerine and then they turned to garlic/onion. I don't want to use Summit anymore, I need a hop that is more stable. Here are some combos I was thinking of. I'm looking for a very orange, juicy hop combo. These hops will be used under 15mins, in whirlpool, and possibly dry hopped.


El Dorado / Mandarina bavaria / citra

Cascade / columbus / mandarin bavaria

el dorado / moetuka / nelson sauvin / mandarina bavaria


Any thoughts?

[Junkyard]

columbus can also get pretty oniony under certain circumstances.

A local brewer near me says when he uses summit it's oniony for about 2 weeks in the keg and then it dies off and becomes more tangerine.

We love el dorado and in one of our beers it's pure orange juice.
Glacier can be a nice fruity hop when used in the dry hop. Our recent 6.2% smash ipa came out like strawberry and cantaloupe with a little cedar/woody note in the background. Citra is always a good bet. Fresh cascade is always pretty orangey- cascade can end up a little spicey which takes away from the juicy impression IMO.
I really didn't like mandarina Bavaria when we tried it here but I'm told it was because of the processor I got it from which was first and only time we used them.

Good luck!

[Alphaacid]

My cascade is super grapefruit and sour. The Mandarina Bav that I used in a single hop, was great. Super tangerine/orange. It's not very pungent so you have to be heavy handed with it.

Any other combo suggestions?

[Jaltwies]

Juicy hop alternative

The orange/clementine sweet citrus and the onion/garlic contract in Summit, CTZ, etc is a double-edged sword. Very inconsistent year to year because of Mother Nature and pest loading in the crop which causes more of the onion/garlic some years more than others.

If you're looking for bright sweet orange-clementine with low astringency I'd look at Skyrocket. New variety in brewer testing now. if you PM me I can get you in touch with the testers and see if you like it.

[BiteMyLip]

Tell us more about your experience growing Summit and CTZ

[Jaltwies]

CTZ and Summit

We've been growing these types for over 10 years in the midwest and have sensory data correlated with pest loading and drought/heat stress. When these hop types are exposed to heavy pest loading (typically spider mites during periods of high heat and drought) they produce dimethyl disulfides and trisulfides. These compounds are produced as pesticides and deterrents. Not all varieties do this.

DMDS and DMTS ranges in aroma from onion/garlic to solvent-like and burned rubber. We like to have some of these compounds produced for the pungent character but too much makes them too aggressive. More important to the original observation, these sulfur compounds can easily mask more delicate aromas.

Another potential reason for loss of pungency is loss of volatiles during drying. Sulfur compounds tend to be quite volatile (they flash off easily during the boil) so if the flowers were dried with high heat (certainly higher than typical temps of 140F) these compounds will be lost partially or mostly. That variability can be wide depending on the number of growers in the batch.

Unfortunately high temps also drive off the juicy aromas and you"re left with something more like, "meh." Hope that helps!

[Junkyard]

We've been growing these types for over 10 years in the midwest and have sensory data correlated with pest loading and drought/heat stress. When these hop types are exposed to heavy pest loading (typically spider mites during periods of high heat and drought) they produce dimethyl disulfides and trisulfides. These compounds are produced as pesticides and deterrents. Not all varieties do this.

DMDS and DMTS ranges in aroma from onion/garlic to solvent-like and burned rubber. We like to have some of these compounds produced for the pungent character but too much makes them too aggressive. More important to the original observation, these sulfur compounds can easily mask more delicate aromas.

Another potential reason for loss of pungency is loss of volatiles during drying. Sulfur compounds tend to be quite volatile (they flash off easily during the boil) so if the flowers were dried with high heat (certainly higher than typical temps of 140F) these compounds will be lost partially or mostly. That variability can be wide depending on the number of growers in the batch.

Unfortunately high temps also drive off the juicy aromas and you"re left with something more like, "meh." Hope that helps!

Very cool! Always love to know more about the hop growing industry.
I've also heard that summit were more tangerine-like when the bines were still in their "young" stages, and that mature Bines produce more onion/garlic. Is there any truth to this? Or is it just misinformation and actually caused by pest loading and high heat like you said?

[Grat]

cool

We've been growing these types for over 10 years in the midwest and have sensory data correlated with pest loading and drought/heat stress. When these hop types are exposed to heavy pest loading (typically spider mites during periods of high heat and drought) they produce dimethyl disulfides and trisulfides. These compounds are produced as pesticides and deterrents. Not all varieties do this.

DMDS and DMTS ranges in aroma from onion/garlic to solvent-like and burned rubber. We like to have some of these compounds produced for the pungent character but too much makes them too aggressive. More important to the original observation, these sulfur compounds can easily mask more delicate aromas.

Another potential reason for loss of pungency is loss of volatiles during drying. Sulfur compounds tend to be quite volatile (they flash off easily during the boil) so if the flowers were dried with high heat (certainly higher than typical temps of 140F) these compounds will be lost partially or mostly. That variability can be wide depending on the number of growers in the batch.

Unfortunately high temps also drive off the juicy aromas and you"re left with something more like, "meh." Hope that helps!

Now this is the way to start the morning.... thanks for the info!

[BiteMyLip]

Interesting...... Summit.... A proprietary variety..... how long have you been a licensed Grower?

[Jaltwies]

Types

Interesting...... Summit.... A proprietary variety..... how long have you been a licensed Grower?

Yes Summit is a licensed type but is not dissimilar to sisters CTZ. They share the same chemistry. Notice that I said "types" in my response. We have also grown other siblings like pilgrim, etc. We choose not to grow Summit however could should we choose to pay the royalty.

[BiteMyLip]

"Type"... you know what I mean... plants

My apologies…… When you commented on “Thread: Juicy Hops - Summit turned on me“ and stated that…. We've been growing these types for over 10 years in the midwest and have sensory data correlated with pest loading and drought/heat stress….

I assumed that you were speaking of correlated sensory data that was relevant to the topic…. My Bad

[soia1138]

My apologies…… When you commented on “Thread: Juicy Hops - Summit turned on me“ and stated that…. We've been growing these types for over 10 years in the midwest and have sensory data correlated with pest loading and drought/heat stress….

I assumed that you were speaking of correlated sensory data that was relevant to the topic…. My Bad

Wow, maybe a second apology is in order. It was completely relevant to the topic. Your posts on the other hand are not. Maybe bite your lip a little.

[El Superyeasto]

Mosaic

Mosaic, some suppliers have it and you don't need to pay jacked up Lupulin exchange pricing right now

[Beerjonez]

Citra

I'm looking for a really juicy combo of hops. The first time I used Summit hops they were awesome, came out nice orange/tangerine and then they turned to garlic/onion. I don't want to use Summit anymore, I need a hop that is more stable. Here are some combos I was thinking of. I'm looking for a very orange, juicy hop combo. These hops will be used under 15mins, in whirlpool, and possibly dry hopped.


El Dorado / Mandarina bavaria / citra

Cascade / columbus / mandarin bavaria

el dorado / moetuka / nelson sauvin / mandarina bavaria


Any thoughts?

We made a session IPA SMASH with Citra and it was very stable, didn't drift flavor profiles, and was extremely tangerine-like. Cashmere was lime-peel citrus-like but drifted after 2 months and Triple Pearl was very stable and white tea, grape leaves-like. We did the same base beer with Citra, Cashmere, and Triple Perle hops as SMASH beers. We then did a beer with all three. Citra as the bittering addition, and all three at the whirlpool and dry hop additions and that was a very citrusy, juicy, orangey beer with a predominantly stable profile up to 3 months.

FWIW.