Tips on glycol line insulation

[BemidjiBrewing]

Hi All,

We will be tackling the job of insulating our newly-installed glycol lines all the way from our chiller (outside) into the cellar to our 6 tanks. We consider ourselves moderately handy (dangerous, I know) but would like to check with the larger community to avoid any major pitfalls along the way. Our initial thoughts and some questions:

- Recommended products/material of choice? The lines are already installed, so we will need a split-tube style insulation. We are eyeing up this product:

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/plumbing/pipe-tube-bending-cutting/pipe-and-tubing-insulation/insul-lock-self-seal-6l-3-4-thick-3-4

Have others used a different product that just kicks ass and is easy (enough) to install?

- We plan to also source pre-fabbed pieces for the tees, elbows, etc. The ball valves and solenoid valves we plan to just wrap with a larger ID insulation tube and drill/cut a hole normal to the line to allow access to the valve handle where applicable.

- There is only a short run of the supply and return lines on the exterior of the building. Will we absolutely need any special jacket or product out there? Or will closed cell foam be fine in various weather conditions?

- Being we are currently operating the cellar and all the tanks and would like to avoid shuting the whole thing down to allow the condensation to dry we plan to insulate all the tanks over the course of a month or so when they cycle through being empty. This will allow us to thoroughly dry each glycol drop before insulating. Once all the tank drops are done we plan to shut down the chiller for the shortest time possible and tackle the main lines (supply & return). Any concerns with this order of operations?

- Am I missing a big piece to this project?

Thanks, as always, for any advice that can be sent our way!

Cheers,
Tom
Bemidji Brewing

[TiminOz]

What type of material is your glycol pipe? That will make a difference in the type of insulation. For the best result I would have used GF Cool Fit and only done it once.

[BemidjiBrewing]

Tim,

We have 3" PEX mains with 3/4" press-fit copper for all of the drops to the tanks.

Cheers,
Tom

[TheCarolinian]

Tim,

We have 3" PEX mains with 3/4" press-fit copper for all of the drops to the tanks.

Cheers,
Tom

Pex only? How long have you been running it through pex with no insulation? I would like to know more about how efficient that is and how the material itself is holding up. Obviously, you need insulation, which is why you're doing this, right? But I'm curious about the difference between pex, pvc, abs, etc...

[BemidjiBrewing]

Only our 3" main is PEX, Wirsbo PEX to be specific. The rest is press-fit copper. The PEX and the rest of the system seems to be operating just fine, even without insulation we are able to crash our 15bbl and 30bbl tanks to 32°F in 8 - 10 hours and maintain lager temps indefinitely. Clearly we are getting condensation, which is why we are insulating in the first place and of course for the higher efficiency. We have only been in our new facility for a couple months and this project was one of the many, as happens in any large build-out, that got pushed down the line.

In hindsight would have a pre-insulated product have worked slicker? Of course. But right now we are just looking for some insight and advice on how to move forward with insulating our current setup.

Thanks!

Cheers,
Tom

[mpilchuk]

Insulation

I am about to insulate our copper glycol tubing. I visited another brewery a few days ago, they had the type of insulation you had in your link and they said NOT to use that stuff. It leaks condensation and drips everywhere (the original installer of 20 yrs ago plumbed the lines above the man ways so they have to protect the opening overtime they open to dry hop). They mentioned something about a using fiberglass insulation. Haven't figured that out yet. Our plumber (who's never done glycol in a brewery) had mentioned something about an insulation that uses some sort of glue to seal the joints.

What did you end up going with?

Mitch


[QUOTE=BemidjiBrewing;173159]Hi All,

We will be tackling the job of insulating our newly-installed glycol lines all the way from our chiller (outside) into the cellar to our 6 tanks. We consider ourselves moderately handy (dangerous, I know) but would like to check with the larger community to avoid any major pitfalls along the way. Our initial thoughts and some questions:

- Recommended products/material of choice? The lines are already installed, so we will need a split-tube style insulation. We are eyeing up this product:

http://www.globalindustrial.com/p/plumbing/pipe-tube-bending-cutting/pipe-and-tubing-insulation/insul-lock-self-seal-6l-3-4-thick-3-4

[idylldon]

I was going to do it myself but decided against it for a variety of reasons. I hired Cal-Therm to do it and I'm glad I did. While I expected them to use 1" closed-cell foam, they didn't. When I asked them why, they basically said the same thing that Mitch posted about how much it will weep and cause mold issues. They used a special urethane pipe insulation with mylar vapor barrier preformed into tubes, 90s, and 45 degree pieces. Once that was installed, they taped it with a special tape and then put a hard PVC cover on it. It came out beautiful and will no doubt last a long time. While it was a bit pricier than doing it myself, I figured out my time was worth more doing other things during our start up and also realized what they did in a day would have taken me a week.





Cheers,
--
Don

[BemidjiBrewing]

Thanks for the replies Mitch & Don,

We are hoping to place the order for the insulation this week through McMaster Carr - we have decided (tentatively) upon a Buna/PVC foamrubber insulation that comes split with both an adhesive strip as well as a flap of tape that pulls over the seam. We also plan to order the recommended adhesive and tape to tackle the joints in a similar manner.

From all I can gather it seems that the best mold/mildew prevention is to achieve an airtight insulation (this sounds difficult) and keep condensation from ever forming. Don, do you ever see condensation right at your tank/insulation interface? How is the end of each insulation run capped and sealed? These are some of the points that I am having a hard time imagining how we will proceed.

McMaster also sells the white PVC wrap as a further protection to the insulation. It appears it is comes in pre-curled lengths but I am unclear how it is applied. Just a bit of tape/adhesive where the wrap overlaps itself? Or is it a heat shrink product as well, to better form tightly against the insulation underneath? Don, any chance you could snap a photo of a closeup of a joint or tank interface and your glycol line?

Thanks & Cheers,
Tom

[lhall]

You can use closed-cell foam insulation, the trick is to seal all the openings. Get some joint glue and apply it liberally to all the end joints, then tape. If you are insulating a plastic-type pipe, make sure that it has warmed up so that thermal expansion later won't pull open your joints.

For outside use, you will want to apply a latex paint over the insulation to protect it from the sun. I didn't and I wish now that I had. After a few years it is becoming brittle and flaking off the surface.

[idylldon]

We are hoping to place the order for the insulation this week through McMaster Carr - we have decided (tentatively) upon a Buna/PVC foamrubber insulation that comes split with both an adhesive strip as well as a flap of tape that pulls over the seam. We also plan to order the recommended adhesive and tape to tackle the joints in a similar manner.

I think this will work fine, especially considering the flap of tape extra seal. This was exactly what I was looking at before deciding to farm it out to save time.

From all I can gather it seems that the best mold/mildew prevention is to achieve an airtight insulation (this sounds difficult) and keep condensation from ever forming. Don, do you ever see condensation right at your tank/insulation interface?

We're still a week or so away from firing up the glycol chiller so I can't really say yet.

How is the end of each insulation run capped and sealed?

For the end of runs (or drop-downs for future expansion), they used a PVC end cap and glued it in place and then they sealed around the joint between the pipe and the insulation. It's made out of the same thin PVC as the outside cover.

If you're asking how they butted two pieces together, these urethane "tubes" also have the same kind of tape flap you mentioned. Once the two adjoining pieces were installed and the tape flaps were pulled tight and pressed down. they used a special tape to seal the butt joint. In fact, they used this tape over the entire install before putting the PVC covering on.

McMaster also sells the white PVC wrap as a further protection to the insulation. It appears it is comes in pre-curled lengths but I am unclear how it is applied. Just a bit of tape/adhesive where the wrap overlaps itself? Or is it a heat shrink product as well, to better form tightly against the insulation underneath?

They just used regular clear PVC pipe cement to glue the lap joint together once the pre-curled lengths were installed. Most of the time, it will set up quickly so you don't need anything to hold the "curl" in place. Sometimes, though, you might have to wrap some tape around it until the glue sets up. They just used the blue painter's masking tape because it comes off easy.

Don, any chance you could snap a photo of a closeup of a joint or tank interface and your glycol line?

I'll send some pics when I get home from the brewery today. Once you see a pic, it will make a lot more sense.

Cheers,
--
Don

[sharperbrewer]

I'm curious about your C02 hose reel, is that an empty reel you loaded with braided tubing or was it bought that way?

Thanks, cheers.

[idylldon]

I'm curious about your C02 hose reel, is that an empty reel you loaded with braided tubing or was it bought that way?

Thanks, cheers.

It was loaded with a cheap PVC air line so I changed it out to braided tubing from Micromatic. I like having my O2, CO2, and transfer pump connections on reels. Helps to avoid clutter in a rather tight space.

Here are the ones I bought: http://www.globalindustrial.com/prod...emKey/30899196

Cheers,
--
Don

[BemidjiBrewing]

Thanks Linus & Don for the tips. I did forget to mention the white latex paint for the exterior portion - we are planning to apply this as well. Our glycol chiller is only a short distance out our back door so it's a minimal amount of exterior work overall. I'll make sure to stock up on plenty of insulation adhesive and tape before tackling the project!

Cheers,
Tom

[idylldon]

Here are the close-up pics that you asked for.



Cheers,
--
Don

[BigBBrew]

I was going to do it myself but decided against it for a variety of reasons. I hired Cal-Therm to do it and I'm glad I did. While I expected them to use 1" closed-cell foam, they didn't. When I asked them why, they basically said the same thing that Mitch posted about how much it will weep and cause mold issues. They used a special urethane pipe insulation with mylar vapor barrier preformed into tubes, 90s, and 45 degree pieces. Once that was installed, they taped it with a special tape and then put a hard PVC cover on it. It came out beautiful and will no doubt last a long time. While it was a bit pricier than doing it myself, I figured out my time was worth more doing other things during our start up and also realized what they did in a day would have taken me a week.

[ATTACH]36927[/ATTACH]

[ATTACH]36928[/ATTACH]

Cheers,
--
Don

I think you made the right call. It looks very clean. Thank you for the making my choice on insulating easy.