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  • If buying a 5BBL...

    If buying a 5BBL system, and I plan on double batching 3 days a week, what are the amount of FVs and Brites I will need to accommodate this?

    Regards,

    Joshua Williams

  • #2
    ?

    If you only want to brew 3 days a week, and it takes 2 weeks to ferment a beer minimum, then you need 6 10 bbl fermenters or 12 5 bbl fermenters.

    Then, once yo get into a rotation in the schedule, the other 2 week days would be filtering and packaging. That would require at least 3 10 bbl bright tanks or 6 5 bbl bright tanks.

    Sunday you come in, do inventory and taxes, then spend the rest of the day cleaning and polishing.
    Todd G Hicks
    BeerDenizen Brewing Services

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Todd Hicks View Post
      ?

      If you only want to brew 3 days a week, and it takes 2 weeks to ferment a beer minimum, then you need 6 10 bbl fermenters or 12 5 bbl fermenters.

      Then, once yo get into a rotation in the schedule, the other 2 week days would be filtering and packaging. That would require at least 3 10 bbl bright tanks or 6 5 bbl bright tanks.

      Sunday you come in, do inventory and taxes, then spend the rest of the day cleaning and polishing.
      Thank you for your input, I appreciate it.

      Comment


      • #4
        Really need more info.
        Is this a brewpub, or small production brewery?
        If production brewery will there be a tap room?
        If a brewpub or tap room, how many different beers do you want on tap?
        Will you be kegging everything, or using serving tanks? Bottling, mini-kegs, canning?
        How many types of beer will you have in production at any given time?
        How many barrels do you plan to produce per years 1-5?
        Self distributing or wholesale distributing under contract?
        Todd G Hicks
        BeerDenizen Brewing Services

        Comment


        • #5
          Profitability more important

          Find the answer to your question by instead asking "how many bbls of beer actually SOLD are required to make my business profitable" and work backwards from there to build your brewery's capacity. You might find that profitability is managed and sustained through maximizing efficiencies. Single batching on a 10bbl system is more efficient with time, energy, employee wages, raw material management, financial resources etc. than double batching on a 5bbl system.

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Todd Hicks View Post
            Really need more info.
            Is this a brewpub, or small production brewery?
            If production brewery will there be a tap room?
            If a brewpub or tap room, how many different beers do you want on tap?
            Will you be kegging everything, or using serving tanks? Bottling, mini-kegs, canning?
            How many types of beer will you have in production at any given time?
            How many barrels do you plan to produce per years 1-5?
            Self distributing or wholesale distributing under contract?
            Is this a brewpub, or small production brewery? I plan on having only a brew pub for year 1, year 2 I would like to start distribution.
            If production brewery will there be a tap room? N/a
            If a brewpub or tap room, how many different beers do you want on tap? I am going to have 4 Beers of my own on tap year 1, supplementing with other local craft brewers on tap as well.
            Will you be kegging everything, or using serving tanks? Bottling, mini-kegs, canning? This is where I'm struggling to come up with an answer and the best route. I believe I would like to send 3/4 of production to Serving tanks, and put the rest into 1/2 Barrel and sixtels for in-house sales.
            How many types of beer will you have in production at any given time? Will only a small beer selection of my own to start out with, they will all be in different stages of production every day.
            How many barrels do you plan to produce per years 1-5? Year 1, we are planning on 1000BBL, with a increase of 500, per year once distribution starts.
            Self distributing or wholesale distributing under contract? Due to state regulations, being a three tiered state, I will have to use a wholesaler.

            Thanks for your help!

            Comment


            • #7
              Realistic Numbers?

              Footnote, I am in planning (small production/tap room only, no planned distro during first 2-3 years) and I have crunched my numbers forty ways to Sunday.

              1000 BBL per year seems very aggressive on a 5 BBL system. You are going to kill yourself in back breaking labor and profitability as Catfish stated. Why not start with a larger system?

              Are you sure your first year planned production numbers are realistic? That is a lot of perishable product sitting in vessels waiting to be sold in a brewpub setting. What are other area brewpubs producing per year? Maybe my planning numbers are off...I am conservatively planning on 200 BBLs (on a 7 BBL system) during year one based on area demographics, regional and state brewery reports from similar sized breweries.

              Just my $.02.

              Comment


              • #8
                SC Laws

                Originally posted by would like to send 3/4 of production to Serving tanks, and put the rest into 1/2 Barrel and sixtels for in-house sales.[/COLOR
                !
                Just an FYI on in house sales of Kegs. Your best bet is to serve some kind of food and sell growlers.

                http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t61c004.php

                (1) the maximum amount of beer that may be sold to an individual per day for off-premises consumption shall be equivalent to two hundred eighty-eight ounces in total;

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Mike-StMichaels View Post
                  Footnote, I am in planning (small production/tap room only, no planned distro during first 2-3 years) and I have crunched my numbers forty ways to Sunday.

                  1000 BBL per year seems very aggressive on a 5 BBL system. You are going to kill yourself in back breaking labor and profitability as Catfish stated. Why not start with a larger system?

                  Are you sure your first year planned production numbers are realistic? That is a lot of perishable product sitting in vessels waiting to be sold in a brewpub setting. What are other area brewpubs producing per year? Maybe my planning numbers are off...I am conservatively planning on 200 BBLs (on a 7 BBL system) during year one based on area demographics, regional and state brewery reports from similar sized breweries.

                  Just my $.02.
                  I appreciate any and all advise and criticism.

                  There is one other brewpub in town, and they have a 17 Barrel system, with two smaller systems (Unknown Size) and they are growing.

                  The town I am in has roughly 64,000 people, so these are the reasons for my elevated numbers, if that still doesn't jive for you let me know. Or maybe my guesstimation is horrible.

                  Cheers,

                  Joshua Williams

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by Mike-StMichaels View Post
                    Footnote, I am in planning (small production/tap room only, no planned distro during first 2-3 years) and I have crunched my numbers forty ways to Sunday.

                    1000 BBL per year seems very aggressive on a 5 BBL system. You are going to kill yourself in back breaking labor and profitability as Catfish stated. Why not start with a larger system?

                    Are you sure your first year planned production numbers are realistic? That is a lot of perishable product sitting in vessels waiting to be sold in a brewpub setting. What are other area brewpubs producing per year? Maybe my planning numbers are off...I am conservatively planning on 200 BBLs (on a 7 BBL system) during year one based on area demographics, regional and state brewery reports from similar sized breweries.

                    Just my $.02.
                    I guess i missed your whole point on the larger system, noted, maybe I should be looking into a 10BBL system instead.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by jawsfree View Post
                      Just an FYI on in house sales of Kegs. Your best bet is to serve some kind of food and sell growlers.

                      http://www.scstatehouse.gov/code/t61c004.php

                      (1) the maximum amount of beer that may be sold to an individual per day for off-premises consumption shall be equivalent to two hundred eighty-eight ounces in total;
                      I do plan on food sales, and you are absolutely right, growler sales would be much better.

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        I think you need to reevaluate your projections on a couple of levels. First off, your growth rate is very optimistic. Not impossibly so, but you probably aren't going to grow like that without some intensive sales efforts. 1000BBL in a taproom in a town that size probably isn't going to happen. We are production brewery with a large and busy taproom in a city of over 1,000,000 and we do about 700BBL per year in the taproom. I don't think anyone in town does much more than that except for the big Gordon Biersch owned chain brewpubs, and they probably don't do much more than 1000BBL. There is flat out no way you are going to grow by 500BBL per year without expanding outside of your home town. The question then becomes, why would anyone outside of Rock Hill want to drink your beer? Once you leave your home market, you aren't local... and as a small, new brewery that is all you will have going for you. At that point you will have to fight for sales to grow like you want to, are you planning for that?

                        Secondly, if you are going to grow the way you want to, a 5BBL system is absurdly small. If you start out at 1000BBL/yr and grow by 500/yr, after three years you are looking at 2500BBL per year, which will require you to brew almost 600 times that year. That is insane. Buy a bigger system. My guess is that you will not actually be making that much beer in your 4th year, but even if you are only at 1800BBL, you will be glad if you have a 10 or 15BBL system and probably wishing you had thought about a 30 by that point.

                        At 5BBL batch size, you are bordering on a nano. Which is fine, but you need to be realistic. If you want to be a production brewery with 500BBL/yr growth, you need to start with at least a 15BBL system, especially if you are only going to brew 4 beers (you probably need to brew more to get people excited enough about you to grow like you want to anyway... but that is a different conversation). If you want to be a 5BBL, borderline nano, that is a viable option, but you will basically want to be a brewpub and focus on your on premises sales in that case.

                        In any case, I think you are being overly optimistic in your estimates and projections, which is a huge mistake. Your should be as conservative as possible in your budgeting and growth projections. It is much better to be surprised by success than to discover that you can neither make nor sell as much beer as you expected to.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Thank you

                          Originally posted by nickfl View Post
                          I think you need to reevaluate your projections on a couple of levels. First off, your growth rate is very optimistic. Not impossibly so, but you probably aren't going to grow like that without some intensive sales efforts. 1000BBL in a taproom in a town that size probably isn't going to happen. We are production brewery with a large and busy taproom in a city of over 1,000,000 and we do about 700BBL per year in the taproom. I don't think anyone in town does much more than that except for the big Gordon Biersch owned chain brewpubs, and they probably don't do much more than 1000BBL. There is flat out no way you are going to grow by 500BBL per year without expanding outside of your home town. The question then becomes, why would anyone outside of Rock Hill want to drink your beer? Once you leave your home market, you aren't local... and as a small, new brewery that is all you will have going for you. At that point you will have to fight for sales to grow like you want to, are you planning for that?

                          Secondly, if you are going to grow the way you want to, a 5BBL system is absurdly small. If you start out at 1000BBL/yr and grow by 500/yr, after three years you are looking at 2500BBL per year, which will require you to brew almost 600 times that year. That is insane. Buy a bigger system. My guess is that you will not actually be making that much beer in your 4th year, but even if you are only at 1800BBL, you will be glad if you have a 10 or 15BBL system and probably wishing you had thought about a 30 by that point.

                          At 5BBL batch size, you are bordering on a nano. Which is fine, but you need to be realistic. If you want to be a production brewery with 500BBL/yr growth, you need to start with at least a 15BBL system, especially if you are only going to brew 4 beers (you probably need to brew more to get people excited enough about you to grow like you want to anyway... but that is a different conversation). If you want to be a 5BBL, borderline nano, that is a viable option, but you will basically want to be a brewpub and focus on your on premises sales in that case.

                          In any case, I think you are being overly optimistic in your estimates and projections, which is a huge mistake. Your should be as conservative as possible in your budgeting and growth projections. It is much better to be surprised by success than to discover that you can neither make nor sell as much beer as you expected to.

                          Thank you, this is exactly what I want to hear, I appreciate you being honest with me. I am being overly optimist for one reason, my business plan. I am trying to get the capital so that I am not struggling throughout the first year so much.

                          So if you are doing 700BBLs a year, what size system do you use to accommodate that, along with the fermentation vessels/Brites? I would love to have a more in depth conversation with you if you have the time, via a private messages

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            We are a 3bbl brew length with 34bbl of fermentor space (soon to be 44bbl).
                            Our plan was to get a smaller system that we could pay cash for (all in with bottling line under 200k cad).
                            We distribute just in our town of 60k, and while this was a ton of work (super glad I've got a second set of hands in the brewery now) we are happy we went this route.
                            While we aren't as profitable as we could be with a longer brew length, we are able to turn a profit. I know that we are going to need to expand sooner than later, but it was great for us to develop a brand in our home town, and when we upgrade to a 30bbl, we have got the perfect pilot system so we aren't out anything from our original investment.
                            It would be worth looking into fixed costs and seeing how much you need to sell to break even (which I am sure you have done) and then how long it would take to pay for a larger system once you have established a reputation.
                            I just realized that this is a huge aside from the original question.
                            We have a 3 bbl brewhouse with 1-3bbl uni, 3-7bbl uni, and 1-(soon to be 2) 10bbl. We brew on average 2.5x a week, (single, double, and triple batches)


                            Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by dmartin View Post
                              We are a 3bbl brew length with 34bbl of fermentor space (soon to be 44bbl).
                              Our plan was to get a smaller system that we could pay cash for (all in with bottling line under 200k cad).
                              We distribute just in our town of 60k, and while this was a ton of work (super glad I've got a second set of hands in the brewery now) we are happy we went this route.
                              While we aren't as profitable as we could be with a longer brew length, we are able to turn a profit. I know that we are going to need to expand sooner than later, but it was great for us to develop a brand in our home town, and when we upgrade to a 30bbl, we have got the perfect pilot system so we aren't out anything from our original investment.
                              It would be worth looking into fixed costs and seeing how much you need to sell to break even (which I am sure you have done) and then how long it would take to pay for a larger system once you have established a reputation.
                              I just realized that this is a huge aside from the original question.
                              We have a 3 bbl brewhouse with 1-3bbl uni, 3-7bbl uni, and 1-(soon to be 2) 10bbl. We brew on average 2.5x a week, (single, double, and triple batches)


                              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                              You're strictly distribution? Thanks for all the information, nickfl made me a little nervous about my initial plans, so a system like yours would make more sense for me.

                              Comment

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