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Thread: Pumping to and from a cellar

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Warrenville IL USA
    Posts
    5

    Pumping to and from a cellar

    Hi all...

    Was wondering how large of a pump I would need to pump cider to and from a cellar over the distance of about 100'.

    Also was wondering would people go with food grade tubing or something a little more rigid?

    Appreciate any help!

    thanks

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Oct 2012
    Location
    Sweden
    Posts
    119
    Hose/pipe diameter and the height needed to pump up from is required.

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Jan 2003
    Location
    Palau
    Posts
    1,882

    What he said....

    Need height of each tank, hose diameter, required time to transfer....
    And you MUST use food grade materials. There is no other choice. Depending on your state requirements, clear or translucent hose is most often specified for cider transfer operations.
    Phillip Kelm--Palau Brewing Company Manager--

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Apr 2012
    Location
    Bainbridge Island, WA
    Posts
    758
    Or hard pipe two stainless pipes. $$$ but easy to CIP, stable, and strong.
    Russell Everett
    Co-Founder / Head Brewer
    Bainbridge Island Brewing
    Bainbridge Island, WA

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Kent, WA
    Posts
    243

    As for the pump...

    I'd recommend using a pneumatic diaphragm pump. Then head doesn't matter like it would with a sanitary centrifugal pump. Buy one sized for your hose/piping. Very low shear, and if you're filling barrels or whatever, you can shut the flow off at the discharge end, and don't need to worry about switching a pump on or off as you move from vessel to vessel. It will also pass small solids/slurries, if you're doing that. I'm assuming you have an air compressor.

    Any other low shear pump is going to be really expensive, with the possible exception of a Jabsco (or other brand) flexible impeller pump.

    Most wineries I've worked with use either type of pump in the 1-2" size range, depending on the use. It's hard to suggest a size without knowing how much you are transferring in a given period of time. If the volume is really large, then the above may not apply to you; a 4" flexible impeller pump is not really practical, IMO.

    Regards,
    Mike Sharp

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Aug 2016
    Location
    Warrenville IL USA
    Posts
    5
    Thanks everyone!!!


    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Apr 2016
    Location
    Milwaukee, WI, USA
    Posts
    17
    Hello OP,

    if you still haven't solved this issue, please call me. I can run the calculations and select a pump for you.

    Marcus Traber
    Ampco Pumps
    414 643 1852 x138

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    5
    Looking for guidance on this same scenario (albeit beer instead of cider). After researching pumps it seems diaphragm is the best way to go. I have a couple questions. I assume the pump should be on the target side pulling instead of at the head end pushing fluid, correct? My main concern too was the fact that I would need to be recovering the fluid contained in the length of the tubing and that it would be pulling air during the last bit of the pump in order to clear the tubing. My understanding is that in this scenario diaphragm is the best way to go in order to clear the line? Is this correct?


    Isaac

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Kent, WA
    Posts
    243
    Quote Originally Posted by IsaacS View Post
    Looking for guidance on this same scenario (albeit beer instead of cider). After researching pumps it seems diaphragm is the best way to go. I have a couple questions. I assume the pump should be on the target side pulling instead of at the head end pushing fluid, correct? My main concern too was the fact that I would need to be recovering the fluid contained in the length of the tubing and that it would be pulling air during the last bit of the pump in order to clear the tubing. My understanding is that in this scenario diaphragm is the best way to go in order to clear the line? Is this correct?


    Isaac
    While diaphragm pumps technically don't require "NPSH" (net positive suction head), there is an inherent limitation based on the suction head pressure--you can only go so low. If the source vessel is open to atmosphere (14.7 psi), for example, you can't possibly go lower than a 14.7 psi differential pressure. And not even close to that either. So at some point, the whole thing stops pumping. And if there is any CO2 at all in it, running a negative pressure anywhere is going to cause breakout. Usually you put a pump, even a diaphragm pump, as close to the source as possible. To get the wort out of the discharge line, you switch to water when the source vessel is empty. Do this with a valve in a "T" on the suction side. Then at the other end, stop the flow when you see the slug of water enter the inline sight glass, but before it makes it to the target vessel. The nice thing about diaphragm pumps (in addition to being low shear, and able to pump slurries) is that you shut if off by simply closing a valve inline with the discharge side. The pump immediately stalls.

    Edit: By the way, the pumps will pump air too...not that I would suggest simply running it dry, because it's still going to leave a lot of liquid in the line. Switching to water on the inlet keeps the whole pipe of wort moving.

    Regards,
    Mike Sharp

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Mar 2017
    Location
    Spokane, WA
    Posts
    5
    So given that I will be pumping sterilized wort (post-boil and cool) then I assume water with a mix of Star San would probably be a good option to clear the line? In that case, since I will be priming and pushing from the source, wouldn't a regular magnetic or centrifugal pump work as well? I've heard of filter issue with some of the smaller diaphragm pumps.


    Isaac

  11. #11
    Join Date
    Oct 2014
    Location
    Kent, WA
    Posts
    243
    Quote Originally Posted by IsaacS View Post
    So given that I will be pumping sterilized wort (post-boil and cool) then I assume water with a mix of Star San would probably be a good option to clear the line? In that case, since I will be priming and pushing from the source, wouldn't a regular magnetic or centrifugal pump work as well? I've heard of filter issue with some of the smaller diaphragm pumps.


    Isaac
    Someone else with hard lines will have to comment on using star san or another sanitizer. I believe most people who have long hard-piped lines use plain water, likely from the HLT. There have been threads on probrewer on it. Magnetic drive pumps aren't very sanitary, IMO. A sanitary centrifugal pump should also work. If you're knocking out at the same time (e.g. this is coming from your HX), is there a reason you can't pump on the hot side? I'm not sure what you mean about small diaphragm pumps and filter issues. Also, don't forget you'll also need a pump to CIP the line, and it needs to produce a much higher velocity in the line to be effective. I remember a post from Dick Murton about this that was really good info about this.

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