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carbonating with no carb stone: spunding plus temp & head pressure

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  • carbonating with no carb stone: spunding plus temp & head pressure

    Hi Everyone,
    In the "carbonation demystified" presentation pdf from the brewers' association, there's a presentation by Marty Velas in which he gives an alternate method of carbonating beer that's supposed to achieve a "finer, more integrated" carb and better head retention.

    He discusses capping the fermenter at a couple of degrees plato above terminal gravity, then applying one or two head pressure/temperature steps after fermentation is complete -- until we get down to the target carb level (for example, 35*F at 12PSI to achieve 2.7 volumes).

    What's missing from his account is a timeline for how long this is expected to take. I assume tank geometry is a complicating factor here, but I'd love some kind of a ballpark for how many days it will take for the tank to achieve a fully integrated carbonation from just applying head pressure at a low temp.

    Does anyone have experience with this?

  • #2
    This is actually the standard method of carbonating beer.

    When the fermentation is completed, you should have enough carbonation in your beer. It is rather a function of pressure and temperature, rather than time.

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    • #3
      Spunding

      Hey,
      Using only spunding to carbonate the beer is very common in Germany. The fermentation temperature and the pressure rating of the fermenters and headspace play a big role. Most german tanks are rated for 2 or 3 bar. We brew on a Portland Kettleworks system and our tanks are only 1 bar.
      When we cap our fermenters 1-2 plato from FG most of our ales end up at 2.00 volumes or something pretty close. Our lagers on the other had end up at around 2.55. Which is what we aim for with most of our beers. So we never have to add carbonation to our lagers.

      If you can have a higher head pressure/ more head space in your tanks you will get more carbonation.

      One of the classic german ways to do it is having the spunding valve set to 0.3-0.5 bar for fermentation and settinf it to 0.7 for lagering/ conditioning. Pressure will of course depend on the lagering temperature.

      With ales it often maks more sense to use a carbination stone to reach the desired carbonation level.

      Carbonating via head pressure at desired saturation pressure takes a long time. Especially with a vertical tank. If you go higher than the saturation pressure it will go faster but require more attention.
      Marius Graff,
      Head Brewer, Graff Brygghus
      Tromsø, Norway

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      • #4
        I guess what I'm looking for here is more specificity.

        Let's say I'm using a 60 or 90bbl tank with 3:2 height to width ratio. I finish the fermentation of an ale at 70F and set the spunding valve to 9PSI at the end of fermentation. After a diacetyl rest, I ramp the head pressure to 14PSI and drop the tank temp to 50F for ___ days. Then I drop the tank to 35 and adjust the head pressure to 12PSI, letting the CO2 absorb for ___ days.

        How long should I be expecting it to take at these temp/pressure stages for the CO2 to be absorbed and evenly distributed? 3 days? A week? A month?

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        • #5
          It all depends on if you cap off your fermenter at the correct time or not. I used to work for a national brewery chain that specializes in traditional German style beers and all their beer was carbonated using these methods. I would cap the ferm when my gravity was 1 to 2 plato above terminal and if I did this correctly it would carb in 1 to 2 days, which was also during my diacetyl rest. By the time my diacetyl rest was complete, my beer would be carbed close to the spec volumes. If it was low I would leave extra head pressure on the tanks and after a week or so at 32 F with 20 psi on the tank, it would be good to go. If you cap late, or don't attenuate fully, your carb will be low and it can be a slow process to bump it up with head pressure. It will take a bit of trial and error to dial it in, but it definitely gives a better head in my opinion. FYI, I was doing this in 40 bbl tanks that were only being filled to 20 bbls. PM me and I can give you my number if you want to talk more about it.
          Last edited by Beer_Nut; 01-05-2017, 04:32 PM.

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          • #6
            Thanks @Beer_Nut and @mariusgraff
            Last edited by powwowwow; 01-06-2017, 07:05 AM.

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            • #7
              Originally posted by Beer_Nut View Post
              I would cap the ferm when my gravity was 1 to 2 plato above terminal and if I did this correctly it would carb in 1 to 2 days, which was also during my diacetyl rest. By the time my diacetyl rest was complete, my beer would be carbed close to the spec volumes.
              was dry hopping accomplished with this method?

              then transfer to brite via co2 push? or pump it with enough co2 top pressure in both tanks to keep from foaming?

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              • #8
                Originally posted by brain medicine View Post
                was dry hopping accomplished with this method?

                then transfer to brite via co2 push? or pump it with enough co2 top pressure in both tanks to keep from foaming?

                Connect the two tanks CO2 in/outlets with a hose, and then pump the liquid. The pressure will remain the same in the two tanks and you save co2.

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                • #9
                  Originally posted by grnis View Post
                  Connect the two tanks CO2 in/outlets with a hose, and then pump the liquid. The pressure will remain the same in the two tanks and you save co2.
                  brilliant!

                  and as for the dry hopping- is it easier to dry hop in the fermenter before you put the spunding valve on? or put the hops into a second tank, pressurize, and transfer beer onto hops?

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