Results 1 to 10 of 10

Thread: Glycol Loop connection to tanks and a few other questions

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    St Louis MO
    Posts
    8

    Glycol Loop connection to tanks and a few other questions

    In an effort to save money I will be installing the glycol loop on our 4 x 15 BBL FVs and 1 x 30 BBL CLT. What type of connection is recommended from the glycol loop (schedule 80 PVC) to the tank (stainless)? I have read Dan Strombergs presentation on glycol loop hints, but it does not clearly spell out what type of transition fitting is need to connect the pipe to the tank. Granted it..I am already going against his advice on not using PVC but I cant afford GF Cool Fit or copper and everyone I have talked to, both mechanical contractors who bid on the project and brewers, have had no failures using PVC 80.

    I have seen a number of transition fittings from the tank to glycol plumbing ranging from copper, stainless, tubing, etc. I plan on using using a 3/4" MPT/Socket schedule 80 fitting to go directly into the tank. Anyone see an issue with this? I've looked everywhere to find a transition fitting which would attach to the tank and transition to PVC but have had no luck. I've also heard that as long as the male end of the PVC adapter joins with the female stainless or other metal you should be ok. The thought was that a male PVC would compress into a female metal union versus the male metal union possibly cracking/opening a female PVC adapter. Thoughts?

    PEX drops - Ive also considered transitioning from the headers to PEX as it seems it is a much easier install than rigid pipe. Thoughts?

    EPDM - The contractor doing the boiler install quoted EPDM rubber hose from a PVC header using hose barbs transitions. Again this seems like an easier install than rigid but don't have much information on performance, cost, longevity, etc. Thoughts?

    I plan on using FILO with a 2" supply and return header, bypass relief valve at the end of the supply run, 3/4" drops to the tanks with manual ball valves to each jacket (2) after the solenoid valve, and pressure/temp gauges on headers. Its about 120 ft run. All piping to insulated with 1" closed cell insulation jacket with .020 PVC.

    Maybe I am overthinking this but wanted your practical experience opinion. Ive searched numerous threads but have found nothing that clearly explains this. I apologize in advance if a thread covering this topic already exist.

    Thanks,

    Chris

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Tustin, CA, USA
    Posts
    49
    Hi Chris,
    Here are some examples on what we offer to transition to the tanks.

    Male NPT Stainless Steel adaptor union to ABS available from 1/2" to 2"
    Name:  Capture_00001.JPG
Views: 347
Size:  55.5 KB
    Female NPT Stainless Steel adaptor union to ABS available from 1/2" to 2"
    Name:  SS ABS union.jpg
Views: 347
Size:  80.1 KB

    Male NPT Stainless Steel adaptor nipple to ABS available from 1/2" to 1"
    Name:  Male SS Transition.jpg
Views: 342
Size:  2.7 KB
    Female NPT Stainless Steel adaptor nipple to ABS available from 1/2" to 1"
    Name:  Female SS Transition.jpg
Views: 341
Size:  2.4 KB

    DIN Stainless Steel weld end adaptor union to ABS available from 21mm to 60mm

    Sweat copper socket union adaptor to ABS available from 3/8" to 2"

    Metric Sweat copper socket union adaptor to ABS available from 22 to 54 mm

    Male NPT Stainless Steel valve end for GF type 546 Ball valve available from 1/2" to 2"
    Name:  NPT Union Male.jpg
Views: 348
Size:  77.4 KB
    Female NPT Stainless Steel valve end for GF type 546 Ball valve available from 1/2" to 2"

    DIN Stainless Steel weld end for GF type 546 Ball valve available from 21mm to 60mm

    Sweat copper socket valve end for GF type 546 ball valve available from 3/4" to 2"

    Metric Sweat copper socket valve end GF Type 546 ball valve available from 22 to 54 mm

    Have you contacted any our local Area Sales Managers for a quote on COOL-FIT ABS (un-insulated and much less costly than copper)?

    Dan Strömberg
    Cooling Market Segment Manager
    Georg Fischer LLC
    Phone: +1 714 368 4196
    Fax: +1 714 368 4197
    Mobile: +1 951 642 2339
    Dan.Stromberg@georgfischer.com

    GF Piping Systems
    9271 Jeronimo Rd., Irvine, CA. 92618
    United States
    www.gfps.com/us

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    6
    I also set up my own glycol loop for cost saving reasons about 4 months ago.

    I used 1-1/2" PEX for the supply and return headers. At that size PEX you have to use the expansion type fittings which require a special tool. They were painless to install and had zero leaks after making about 80 separate connections.

    From the headers I isolated the runs to each tank with a ball valve. I just purchased a PEX male expansion fitting that had male threads on the other side for the ball valves.

    From the ball valves I ran 1" ID braided vinyl hose into the various needed threaded fittings from there.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Oct 2010
    Location
    Northern CA
    Posts
    338
    Ive seen PEX used for drops at several breweries.

    A couple pieces of advice on setting up the glycol

    make sure you have a shut off valve on each drop - if for some reason you need to isolate or drain the glycol from a tank you don't want to have to drain the entire header too

    I would recommend putting a union on either side of your solenoid. Depending on the type of solenoid you're using they tend to foul up and stick open very easily. Its often a tiny piece of PVC. its easy to clean the solenoid and put it back in, but not if you can't remove it from the drop.

    Also, with 15 bbl tanks (and your 30) with multiple jackets you should be able to plumb the jackets in series, start going in the bottom jacket then out and into the next jacket. Saves you on valves and fittings and it won't make much difference in temp control on tanks that small.

    Cheer and good luck
    Manuel

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Aug 2014
    Location
    Ohio
    Posts
    6
    Yep I isolated each solenoid from both the headers and the tanks.

    Quote Originally Posted by mmussen View Post
    Ive seen PEX used for drops at several breweries.

    Also, with 15 bbl tanks (and your 30) with multiple jackets you should be able to plumb the jackets in series, start going in the bottom jacket then out and into the next jacket. Saves you on valves and fittings and it won't make much difference in temp control on tanks that small.
    haha damn...I ran my 7 bbl tanks in parallel. overkill I guess!

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    St Louis MO
    Posts
    8

    Thanks

    Thanks for the tips guys.

    Dan - I have looked at the coolfit options. Early in the process it was doable but HVAC and structural surprises have chewed up most of my money and now need to start cutting back. I was at a local brewery yesterday and they had the ABS plus recently installed. Looks great and the owner seemed very happy with the product. I will find an area rep to see what it would cost just for the material. If it fits into the budget I will definitely consider.

    At this point I have budgeted $5,000 for the loop and will install myself. I plan on using 3/4" SS to copper unions on the tanks (Supply Warehouse), transition to pex up to the solenoid valve/manual shut off, to Schedule 80 PVC for the header. It would be nice to use 1.5" pex for the header, but based on my jacket size, loop length, and a 60% demand use I would need a 2" header to get 5 fps flow rates. The 2" pex I have looked at is about $250 more than the schedule 80 PVC. I know its not a lot but I am trying to pinch where I can.

    I'll draw up some plans to run these in series versus parallel to see where it saves me some cash.

    Again Thank you and CHEERS

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Mar 2007
    Location
    Tustin, CA, USA
    Posts
    49
    Quote Originally Posted by Gbc75 View Post
    Thanks for the tips guys.

    Dan - I have looked at the coolfit options. Early in the process it was doable but HVAC and structural surprises have chewed up most of my money and now need to start cutting back. I was at a local brewery yesterday and they had the ABS plus recently installed. Looks great and the owner seemed very happy with the product. I will find an area rep to see what it would cost just for the material. If it fits into the budget I will definitely consider.

    At this point I have budgeted $5,000 for the loop and will install myself. I plan on using 3/4" SS to copper unions on the tanks (Supply Warehouse), transition to pex up to the solenoid valve/manual shut off, to Schedule 80 PVC for the header. It would be nice to use 1.5" pex for the header, but based on my jacket size, loop length, and a 60% demand use I would need a 2" header to get 5 fps flow rates. The 2" pex I have looked at is about $250 more than the schedule 80 PVC. I know its not a lot but I am trying to pinch where I can.

    I'll draw up some plans to run these in series versus parallel to see where it saves me some cash.

    Again Thank you and CHEERS
    Hi,
    My local Area Sales Manager is in St. Louis and his name is Rick Bradbury, give hime a call and he can help you out 636-577-8649

    Dan Strömberg
    GF Piping

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Aug 2010
    Location
    Enterprise, Oregon
    Posts
    1,441
    Flexible drops are very convenient for hooking up tanks. Obviously, not necessary, as the tanks are not moving relative to the headers, but convenient and insure no stress loads on the headers.

    Use an isolation valve on both sides of the tank. At some point, you will need to isolate a tank--especially with new tanks as there may be leaks or other initial start-up problems.

    At all costs, avoid using female PVC pipe-thread fittings over male pipe threads. At the very least, they will develop leaks, at worst, they'll split. Our local plumbing suppliers no longer sell PVC female NPT fittings in sizes greater than 3/4" for this reason.

    We have sch 80 PVC glycol loops, some of which have been in continuous use for nearly 20 years. If I were building new, I'd probably go with the Cool-fit or similar, as a good insulation job is time consuming, difficult, and a gluey mess!

    Insulation must be as nearly air-tight as humanly possible. Use a contact adhesive and tape that are approved for your insulation, and seal everything except for solenoid valves. As mentioned above, these tend to get tiny bits of stuff left over from assembling your headers and will need to be disassembled and cleaned, especially during the first year or so of operation. Locate your solenoids so they can be maintained in place, and skip the unions. Using the solenoid at the transition from the rigid header to the flexible drop, with an isolation ball valve between the solenoid and the header is the most convenient if you ever need to remove the solenoid. Unions will develop leaks after a few uses.

    Remember that the solenoid always goes on the inlet, or cold, side of the tank. When closing isolation valves, always close the inlet side first, then the outlet side. Cooling jackets can be fragile and it's not a good idea to stress them unnecessarily.
    Timm Turrentine

    Brewerywright,
    Terminal Gravity Brewing,
    Enterprise. Oregon.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    St Louis MO
    Posts
    8
    Quote Originally Posted by TGTimm View Post
    Flexible drops are very convenient for hooking up tanks. Obviously, not necessary, as the tanks are not moving relative to the headers, but convenient and insure no stress loads on the headers.

    Use an isolation valve on both sides of the tank. At some point, you will need to isolate a tank--especially with new tanks as there may be leaks or other initial start-up problems.

    At all costs, avoid using female PVC pipe-thread fittings over male pipe threads. At the very least, they will develop leaks, at worst, they'll split. Our local plumbing suppliers no longer sell PVC female NPT fittings in sizes greater than 3/4" for this reason.

    We have sch 80 PVC glycol loops, some of which have been in continuous use for nearly 20 years. If I were building new, I'd probably go with the Cool-fit or similar, as a good insulation job is time consuming, difficult, and a gluey mess!

    Insulation must be as nearly air-tight as humanly possible. Use a contact adhesive and tape that are approved for your insulation, and seal everything except for solenoid valves. As mentioned above, these tend to get tiny bits of stuff left over from assembling your headers and will need to be disassembled and cleaned, especially during the first year or so of operation. Locate your solenoids so they can be maintained in place, and skip the unions. Using the solenoid at the transition from the rigid header to the flexible drop, with an isolation ball valve between the solenoid and the header is the most convenient if you ever need to remove the solenoid. Unions will develop leaks after a few uses.

    Remember that the solenoid always goes on the inlet, or cold, side of the tank. When closing isolation valves, always close the inlet side first, then the outlet side. Cooling jackets can be fragile and it's not a good idea to stress them unnecessarily.
    Timm - I have reached out to the local GF rep for a non insulated ABS option and pricing. I will insulate it later. As with most start ups the money is drying up. The HVAC, structural, and boiler install costs really punched me in the gut. Thanks for clarifying the FPT PVC to MPT metal fittings. I will see where the GF bid comes back and make a determination from there. Thank you for the help and advice.

    Chris

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Nov 2016
    Location
    Santa Rosa, CA., USA
    Posts
    2

    Anybody use Sharkbite on copper for chilling loop?

    We want a rigid parallel manifold at each jacket to be able to control temps at each jacket layer via a ball valve, the whole thing controlled from our brewer's control via an actuated ball valve. We want to connect to the main line via flex, then to a copper manifold at the tank in order to have some rigidity to support the actuated ball valve.

    My question is this- I've used Sharkbite fittings in homes on copper and it works great. In this particular application it seems particularly great since you could tighten (or loosen and remove) any fitting very easily. It's rated to 200 PSI and rated for up to 100% glycol in hydronic heating applications, but I see nothing on chilled media glycol temps.

    When I spoke to Sharkbite they said that if the content freezes the expansion will burst the fitting, but of course that shouldn't happen with glycol.

    Anybody out there using Sharkbite fittings on copper on their glycol loop? Any issues?

    Thanks,

    -Bill

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •