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Anyones Brewery have a Parkade Underneath? Load issues.

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  • Anyones Brewery have a Parkade Underneath? Load issues.

    I am currently in discussions with the engineers on this building that has a full parkade underneath the main floor.

    I have a 10 BBL brewhouse. Was looking at 2x 20BBL and 5x 10BBL unitanks, 6x serving tanks. These are my calcs.

    Vessel Type sq-in [psi] w/liquid 6" foot sq-in [psi] w/liquid 8" foot
    10 bbl Unitank 7.77 4.33
    20 bbl fat unitank 15.09 8.40
    MT 9.99 5.56
    BK 10.88 6.06
    8 BBL Serving tank 6.33 3.69

    Click image for larger version

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    This is what I know so far and I am not an structural engineer or an expert in concrete so excuse any ignorance. The concrete is 9" thick and is designed for 100 psf live load. One engineer said it was ok as he calculated 76 lbs per sq ft. Another engineer is second guessing it saying; vessel number 5 weighs 6760# when full with a base of 6’ diameter. The area of a 6’ diameter circle is 28.27 sq ft. 6760/28.27 = 240 psf. The majority of the vessels in your table end up with similar area loads (vessel 4 is 315 psf and vessel 6 is 340 psf). This floor is designed for 100 psf live load per the requirements of the Building Code. In order to increase the load bearing capacity of the floor at this point would require reinforcement of the slab from below.

    I think they are still working through the information as they seek to understand. I know all concrete is built different and it depends on the supports underneath people cant answer. I'm looking into 8" foot instead of 6". I'm looking into horizontal tanks. I'm looking into metal plates under the fermenters.

    What I am looking to hear if anyone else has a brewery above a parkade (or similar)and if you have to do anything special for the load. Is there any concrete questions I should be asking?

  • #2
    Ill preface - I had ZERO knowledge of structural engineering prior setting my brewhouse. However, I have a learned a little since we began buildout. I had a somewhat similar situation. My brewery resides on the first floor (4" concrete) with steel substructure below which houses a basement. If you walk in the basement the substructure looks like that under a highway bridge. The original blueprints were signed off with a live load at 300# psf. I thought it would not be a problem to put an 80,000# brewhouse and cellar package into a 1,000 square foot area. Based on the original specs that 1000 ft area could support 300,000#s right? Luckily my neighbor is a structural engineer. As we were walking through the building he thought that the girder/column/beam arrangement and spacing looked too wide to support the tanks. The tanks include 15BBL 2 vessel brewhouse, 4 - 15 BBL FVs, 2 - 30 BBL HLT/CLT. Based on the square footage of the brewery, the weight of the tanks, and the original live load calculations the floor should have been able to support. WRONG! The issue is that the 80,000# is not evenly spread throughout the area. It is centered on the tank pads which reside under the legs. If the tank is 8' wide and weighs 15,000# it is not spread over 8'...rather...the weight is distributed through the legs, to the pads, and to the floor. In my case I have 6" and 8" pads under each leg depending on size. This increases the weight load from a large surface area to a small space, thus increasing the live load. After the structural engineer ran the calculations it was determined that I needed to add a 53' beam with 3 support columns directly underneath the brewhouse ad CLT/HLTs. Is was $22,000 surprise. Not as bad as I thought but still alot of money.

    The biggest thing I learned is that a structural engineer is liable for anything they stamp and put their name on until they die. As such, they will over engineer the shXX out of everything to cover their ass for which I completely understand. I would ask the engineer if you could use larger diameter foot pads under the tanks to help spread the load. That would be the easiest as it was the first thing my engineer asked me. A 9" pour is pretty heavy duty, but you have a lot of tanks. I would rather be safe and over engineer the area where my biggest investment sits. The last thing you want is to walk in one morning and see your tanks in a pit, or worse yet be brewing and have a failure. As far as the cement goes they could probably take a core sample and determine the PSI rating of the cement although this should be included in the notes of the original blueprints if you have them. Send me pm if you would like to discuss more. Best of luck! Chris

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by Gbc75 View Post
      Ill preface - I had ZERO knowledge of structural engineering prior setting my brewhouse. However, I have a learned a little since we began buildout. I had a somewhat similar situation. My brewery resides on the first floor (4" concrete) with steel substructure below which houses a basement. If you walk in the basement the substructure looks like that under a highway bridge. The original blueprints were signed off with a live load at 300# psf. I thought it would not be a problem to put an 80,000# brewhouse and cellar package into a 1,000 square foot area. Based on the original specs that 1000 ft area could support 300,000#s right? Luckily my neighbor is a structural engineer. As we were walking through the building he thought that the girder/column/beam arrangement and spacing looked too wide to support the tanks. The tanks include 15BBL 2 vessel brewhouse, 4 - 15 BBL FVs, 2 - 30 BBL HLT/CLT. Based on the square footage of the brewery, the weight of the tanks, and the original live load calculations the floor should have been able to support. WRONG! The issue is that the 80,000# is not evenly spread throughout the area. It is centered on the tank pads which reside under the legs. If the tank is 8' wide and weighs 15,000# it is not spread over 8'...rather...the weight is distributed through the legs, to the pads, and to the floor. In my case I have 6" and 8" pads under each leg depending on size. This increases the weight load from a large surface area to a small space, thus increasing the live load. After the structural engineer ran the calculations it was determined that I needed to add a 53' beam with 3 support columns directly underneath the brewhouse ad CLT/HLTs. Is was $22,000 surprise. Not as bad as I thought but still alot of money.

      The biggest thing I learned is that a structural engineer is liable for anything they stamp and put their name on until they die. As such, they will over engineer the shXX out of everything to cover their ass for which I completely understand. I would ask the engineer if you could use larger diameter foot pads under the tanks to help spread the load. That would be the easiest as it was the first thing my engineer asked me. A 9" pour is pretty heavy duty, but you have a lot of tanks. I would rather be safe and over engineer the area where my biggest investment sits. The last thing you want is to walk in one morning and see your tanks in a pit, or worse yet be brewing and have a failure. As far as the cement goes they could probably take a core sample and determine the PSI rating of the cement although this should be included in the notes of the original blueprints if you have them. Send me pm if you would like to discuss more. Best of luck! Chris
      Thats a great post! That helps a lot!

      The landlord is open to reinforce the floor and I am waiting to hear back from the engineer to share all the concerns for discussion. I'm thinking your solution will be similar to make mine work. They are even taking of bolting down metal posts on the main floor that bolt to the ceiling metal beams as well.

      Comment


      • #4
        Ok the came back with this;

        Items of concern:

        • The total weight load on the main floor where the brewery equipment is, and the main floors lack of ability to support all the equipment in that space.

        Items not a concern:

        • The individual divided PSI pressure on the concrete per leg of the vessels is ok per the concrete ratings.
        • The Brewery equipment does not impact the load on the parkade floor.
        • The Brewery equipment does not impact the support design of what is under the parkade concrete floor.

        Comment


        • #5
          I noticed you have 8lbs for a gallon. I would say beer is closer to 8.4. A few hundred pounds here and there might change your total load calculations


          Sent from my iPad using Tapatalk
          Prost!
          Eric Brandjes
          Cole Street Brewery
          Enumclaw, WA

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks I will change the weight to 8.4. I got 8 from here from someone else's calculation.

            We had a meeting today with the engineers. They plan to reinforce underneath in the parkade with metal beams. Crisis averted. lol.

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