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  • VERY Slow Transfer from Brite Tank to Kegs

    We are a new brewery soon to be opening and we are kegging our first batches of beer. The brite tank is 3 BBLs and we use a carb stone. We carb for 3 days at around 35 degrees and transfer to kegs using a GW Kent ProLine filler. The pressure of the kegs is right around the same pressure that's being applied to the bright tank. For those not familiar with the GW Kent filler, it automatically bleeds out CO2 from the keg as needed to maintain a steady transfer of beer with minimal foaming.

    The first keg goes really well, and fills in about 5-10 minutes, and the keg filler seems to be working exactly as it's supposed to. The second keg goes a little slower, taking 10-15 minutes. After that, the transfer slows down to a crawl. The first few kegs we fill are half barrel for in-house use, then we fill sixtels for distribution. By the end, the sixtels take around 30 minutes each to fill.

    Last night the issue worsened. Again, the first two kegs filled at an okay pace. After that, the third keg got partially filled and then seemed to stall out completely. I can feel the little pinhole on the keg filler just barely pushing out CO2 from the keg, but no beer is flowing in. I disconnected that keg and tried another keg, just to see what would happen. Same thing. It was a trickle, and then appeared to completely stall out.

    I disconnected the hose from the keg filler and opened up the brite tank valve, and the beer came shooting out like a fire hose, so there was no issue with that being clogged or lacking pressure to force out beer. I also looked at the keg filler and can see right through the hole where the beer would flow into the keg, so no issue there either. I hooked it all back up and tried again. Same issue.

    The last thing I did was an experiment. I took a sixtel and bled it completely so that there was no pressure left in it. I hooked up the filler, turned the valve to about a quarter open, and beer flowed in. I slowly opened the valve more and more until it was fully open and I could visibly see, on the sight glass, that beer was flowing in at a very fast rate. The keg was about half full (and no doubt foamy as all heck) when it stopped flowing again. I disconnected the filler and threw on a regular coupler and removed the pressure in the keg again (the keg filler doesn't have a bleeder valve). Re-attached the filler and opened it up all the way. Beer flowed again, and then stalled out again at about 3/4 full. I kept on doing this until the keg was full, no doubt flattening out my beer in the process.

    Does anyone have ANY idea what is causing this? Or any further questions? We have to keg again in 3 days, and I'm afraid we'll run into the same issue. Thanks in advance!
    Christopher K

  • #2
    I don't have any personal experience with the Proline Manual Keg Filler from GWKent (if that is the product you are using), however I have heard multiple accounts of the FOB mechanism being very susceptible to clogging with foam/beer residue after a keg or two. From how you described the behavior of the filling rate, and that you were able to discern the problem is on the keg's end vs. the brite tank, I would guess that you aren't getting good, consistent venting from your keg and are simply equalizing the pressures between the two vessels as a result.

    A quick check on this would be to remove the "auto" FOB portion of that filling head and just replace it with a beer thread ball valve, the same style that's on the inlet to the keg, and manually crack that open to control the counter pressure. Throw a barb and hose on that ball valve and run it into a bucket of sani and you will be filling kegs just like 1000's of other brewers. Other than the ability to walk away for a few minutes, I really don't see a big advantage to the manual fillers with a FOB - it seems like it takes more labor to keep that mechanism working than to actually keg the beer. That's just my opinion, though!

    Cheers,
    Tom

    Comment


    • #3
      Originally posted by ckresge View Post
      We are a new brewery soon to be opening and we are kegging our first batches of beer. The brite tank is 3 BBLs and we use a carb stone. We carb for 3 days at around 35 degrees and transfer to kegs using a GW Kent ProLine filler. The pressure of the kegs is right around the same pressure that's being applied to the bright tank. For those not familiar with the GW Kent filler, it automatically bleeds out CO2 from the keg as needed to maintain a steady transfer of beer with minimal foaming.

      The first keg goes really well, and fills in about 5-10 minutes, and the keg filler seems to be working exactly as it's supposed to. The second keg goes a little slower, taking 10-15 minutes. After that, the transfer slows down to a crawl. The first few kegs we fill are half barrel for in-house use, then we fill sixtels for distribution. By the end, the sixtels take around 30 minutes each to fill.

      Last night the issue worsened. Again, the first two kegs filled at an okay pace. After that, the third keg got partially filled and then seemed to stall out completely. I can feel the little pinhole on the keg filler just barely pushing out CO2 from the keg, but no beer is flowing in. I disconnected that keg and tried another keg, just to see what would happen. Same thing. It was a trickle, and then appeared to completely stall out.

      I disconnected the hose from the keg filler and opened up the brite tank valve, and the beer came shooting out like a fire hose, so there was no issue with that being clogged or lacking pressure to force out beer. I also looked at the keg filler and can see right through the hole where the beer would flow into the keg, so no issue there either. I hooked it all back up and tried again. Same issue.

      The last thing I did was an experiment. I took a sixtel and bled it completely so that there was no pressure left in it. I hooked up the filler, turned the valve to about a quarter open, and beer flowed in. I slowly opened the valve more and more until it was fully open and I could visibly see, on the sight glass, that beer was flowing in at a very fast rate. The keg was about half full (and no doubt foamy as all heck) when it stopped flowing again. I disconnected the filler and threw on a regular coupler and removed the pressure in the keg again (the keg filler doesn't have a bleeder valve). Re-attached the filler and opened it up all the way. Beer flowed again, and then stalled out again at about 3/4 full. I kept on doing this until the keg was full, no doubt flattening out my beer in the process.

      Does anyone have ANY idea what is causing this? Or any further questions? We have to keg again in 3 days, and I'm afraid we'll run into the same issue. Thanks in advance!


      Hi Christopher,
      My initial suspicion is the beer stop is not venting the keg as it fills. Since filling kegs like this relies on the existence of a pressure gradient between the tank and keg, if the pressure is not venting at all from the keg as beer fills it, then eventually the tank and keg will reach equilibrium with respect to their pressures and filling will stop. Also, if the keg venting is very slow than the filling will also be very slow. You could troubleshoot your keg filler by removing the beer stop and replace it with a small shutoff valve (http://www.micromatic.com/shut-offs/...s-steel-7419-1) so you can manually bleed the keg pressure as it fills. This would allow you to determine if the beer stop is the culprit. This is basically the setup I use to fill kegs. I can get a 1/2 bbl to fill in around three to four minutes with very little foam waste. Just make sure to keep the tank head pressure up.
      My two cents.......
      Prost!
      Dave
      Glacier Brewing Company
      406-883-2595
      info@glacierbrewing.com

      "who said what now?"

      Comment


      • #4
        Sounds like what Tom above said -- the FOB is clogging up. I use the very same filler and after EVERY single keg, I have to unscrew the FOB about half way, give a good blow through the pinhole to push out any foam and push the ball back down into the seated position. Then the next keg is ready. It isn't really that much of a pain, it is just SOP. Takes about 10 seconds, and I am on to the next keg.
        Dave Cowie
        Three Forks Bakery & Brewing Company
        Nevada City, CA

        Comment


        • #5
          Hey guys - I just got myself one of the the FOB fillers from GW Kent (just the FOB, I'll put it on my own Sanke connector). Haven't used it yet, but wondering what the threads on the outlet are for?? Attaching a barb and a line??

          -J.
          Jeremy Reed
          Co-Founder and President, assistant brewer, amateur electrician, plumber, welder, refrigeration tech, and intermediately swell fella
          The North of 48 Brewing Company
          Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

          www.no48.ca

          Comment


          • #6
            Thanks for the quick responses, guys. It seems like you're all in agreement as to what the issue might be. I'll take the FOB off and see if this fixes the issue.
            Christopher K

            Comment


            • #7
              Originally posted by Jer View Post
              Hey guys - I just got myself one of the the FOB fillers from GW Kent (just the FOB, I'll put it on my own Sanke connector). Haven't used it yet, but wondering what the threads on the outlet are for?? Attaching a barb and a line??

              -J.
              When you say threads on the outlet, do you mean this:

              Click image for larger version

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              That is actually a hose barb for 1/2" hose, not a threaded end.
              Christopher K

              Comment


              • #8
                I think your problem is pressure differential. You say that your brite and kegs stay at roughly the same pressure during filling. So the only thing pushing the beer is hydrostatic pressure, or how high above the keg the level of beer in the brite tank is. I can imagine, though I have no experience with 3bbl sized tanks that you have much height differential here. You also stated that when you release to atmosphere or a keg with no back pressure that it fills or flows very rapidly. This is the key to your problem I think. Here are the basics, in order for a fluid to flow there has to be pressure differential between the source and the end point. The smaller the differential, the slower the flow, add to that friction losses in the hose and around every bend, and you probably don't have much dynamic pressure remaining.

                The solution, raise the pressure in your brite tank, and make sure your keg stays below this. Take my keg filling set up as an example: We have an automated filler, in the sense that it stops automatically when beer comes out the gas port of the coupler. We pressurize the brite tank to 20 psi and keep the keg at 13 psi. This prevents foaming and has quick fills. roughly 4 minutes per half and 90 seconds per sixtel.

                Comment


                • #9
                  More discussion here

                  Todd G Hicks
                  BeerDenizen Brewing Services

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Sounds like you're losing head pressure on the brite tank. The fact that beer flows fine with lack of pressure on the keg indicates, as others have noted, an issue with pressure differential. My suspicion is that you have your pressure set on the regulator so that it is higher than the keg, but the keg filling processes depletes the head pressure more quickly than the gas enters. Stupid question, but are you switching the co2 from the carbon stone to head pressure when filling? Take a look at the pressure gauge on the top of the brite tank. If you notice it dropping as you fill kegs, that's your issue.

                    If you're maintaining head pressure, the issue is he keg filler. For what it's worth, I had the same issue with the fob clogging but it always worked fine after I cleaned it out. Id also like to note that my issue with the keg filler was all or nothing: the check ball either allowed flow or it didnt. I didn't experience flow rate slowly dropping, but rather occasionally it would give a false positive and stop flow completely. Because if they gradual change in flow rate, it really seems like a pressure issue.
                    Last edited by claponsie; 02-22-2017, 07:49 PM.

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by ckresge View Post
                      When you say threads on the outlet, do you mean this:

                      [ATTACH]44416[/ATTACH]

                      That is actually a hose barb for 1/2" hose, not a threaded end.
                      No, I mean there's female threads just past the sight glass on the FOB thingy - Ill try and shoot a pic.

                      Success!!!

                      Click image for larger version

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                      -J.
                      Last edited by Jer; 02-23-2017, 01:24 AM.
                      Jeremy Reed
                      Co-Founder and President, assistant brewer, amateur electrician, plumber, welder, refrigeration tech, and intermediately swell fella
                      The North of 48 Brewing Company
                      Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

                      www.no48.ca

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        While we're on this topic - what does the 100$ GW Kent connector get a guy that a 40$ standard sanke connector with a 4$ 1/2" tailpiece doesn't??

                        -J.
                        Jeremy Reed
                        Co-Founder and President, assistant brewer, amateur electrician, plumber, welder, refrigeration tech, and intermediately swell fella
                        The North of 48 Brewing Company
                        Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

                        www.no48.ca

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by Jer View Post
                          While we're on this topic - what does the 100$ GW Kent connector get a guy that a 40$ standard sanke connector with a 4$ 1/2" tailpiece doesn't??

                          -J.
                          If I'm not mistaken, most keg couplers have a check ball that needs to be removed in order to push liquid through the liquid side into the keg. Other than that, probably nothing.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by Jer View Post
                            While we're on this topic - what does the 100$ GW Kent connector get a guy that a 40$ standard sanke connector with a 4$ 1/2" tailpiece doesn't??

                            -J.
                            The whole point of the GW fillet is the FOB, what it does is limit the flow of air out of the keg which in turn limits the flow of be into the keg reducing foaming. The nicest part is that when the keg is full of pushes into the FOB and pushes the ball up and shuts off. This is nice because you can do other items around the brewery and not have to wait for it.

                            Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              Originally posted by Crosley View Post
                              The whole point of the GW fillet is the FOB, what it does is limit the flow of air out of the keg which in turn limits the flow of be into the keg reducing foaming. The nicest part is that when the keg is full of pushes into the FOB and pushes the ball up and shuts off. This is nice because you can do other items around the brewery and not have to wait for it.

                              Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
                              Right, but you could just buy the FOB and put it on a keg coupler, couldn't you?

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