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  • Sanitary weld opinions needed



    Had this welded up to test the welder we're looking at using to do some ferrules on our system. What do you guys think?


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  • #2
    Not great. Maybe not even good.

    Nothing is ground smooth. Certainly not polished. Not even pickle pasted.

    On the pic taken from the inside there's a clear pit at 11 o'clock. On the pic of the outside of the ferrule there's at least two pits at about 8 o'clock, and one at 1 o'clock.

    You can do better.

    If this is a pro, production system, keep looking.

    -J.
    Last edited by Jer; 03-30-2017, 01:43 AM.
    Jeremy Reed
    Co-Founder and President, assistant brewer, amateur electrician, plumber, welder, refrigeration tech, and intermediately swell fella
    The North of 48 Brewing Company
    Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

    www.no48.ca

    Comment


    • #3
      I only see one picture, which appears to be of the inside of the joint.

      Not very good at all, and without considerable finishing, not remotely acceptable.

      Did he use a noble gas wash on the opposite side while welding? It doesn't look like it. Many welders don't really understand the requirements of a sanitary weld--it must be perfectly smooth for CIP, with no de-carburization which will lead to rusting. The welder also didn't move fast enough, hence the wide heat-affected zone, which will need to be thoroughly passivated or it will begin to rust. Just grinding the color off won't do the job.
      Timm Turrentine

      Brewerywright,
      Terminal Gravity Brewing,
      Enterprise. Oregon.

      Comment


      • #4
        Sanitary weld opinions needed

        That's all I need to hear. Thanks for the input. I feared such, so my initial terms with the guy was that this was only a test at no charge. Seems like every time I mention "sanitary" when speaking with welders, I get funny looks...

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        Last edited by ascension; 03-30-2017, 11:34 AM.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by ascension View Post
          That's all I need to hear. Thanks for the input. I feared such, so my initial terms with the guy was that this was only a test at no charge. Seems like every time I mention "sanitary" when speaking with welders, I get funny looks...

          Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
          You shouldn't. I've mentioned it to 2 pro welders that I know and they both knew exactly what I meant. If you were closer I'd get my buddy to help you out!!

          What are you hoping to add?? To what vessel??
          Jeremy Reed
          Co-Founder and President, assistant brewer, amateur electrician, plumber, welder, refrigeration tech, and intermediately swell fella
          The North of 48 Brewing Company
          Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

          www.no48.ca

          Comment


          • #6
            Originally posted by Jer View Post
            You shouldn't. I've mentioned it to 2 pro welders that I know and they both knew exactly what I meant. If you were closer I'd get my buddy to help you out!!

            What are you hoping to add?? To what vessel??
            We are adding ports for heating elements, temp probes, float switches and valves to our nano setup (3 Blichmann 55gal kettles).

            I just brought the guy an old keggle to see what he can do. He runs a machine shop in my town and does great work with that and thought I explained well enough how I needed it. I voiced my concerns with it and I'm waiting to hear back from him.

            I have another guy in the New Orleans area I was referred to thats done work for a few breweries and a distillery down there. I'm going to give him a call but I'm scared of how much he'll want to charge me. What can I expect to pay per weld? They are 1-1/2" triclover ferrules.


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            • #7
              Originally posted by ascension View Post
              We are adding ports for heating elements, temp probes, float switches and valves to our nano setup (3 Blichmann 55gal kettles).

              I just brought the guy an old keggle to see what he can do. He runs a machine shop in my town and does great work with that and thought I explained well enough how I needed it. I voiced my concerns with it and I'm waiting to hear back from him.

              I have another guy in the New Orleans area I was referred to thats done work for a few breweries and a distillery down there. I'm going to give him a call but I'm scared of how much he'll want to charge me. What can I expect to pay per weld? They are 1-1/2" triclover ferrules.


              Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
              You're doing exactly what I've done. I pay my guy about 30$ or so per ferrule. It's pretty unofficial, so the price often varies with how much whiskey we've consumed....

              If all of your desired additions are on the hot side, you don't have to be as worried. I know that I'm gonna get lambasted for saying that, but it's true. If your original welder there ground those smoother, filled in those pits, and then hit them with pickling paste, I'd be happy. If it was something on the cold side in a production setting, I'd push for perfection.

              Suggestion - get a BK that's bigger than your mash tun. Your mask water + your sparge water is going to be bigger than 55gallons if you maximize your mash tun, and you'll want headspace to limit boilovers.. I started with 3x30 gallon vessels, and now have 30-30-50 to optimize our runs.

              Also, make sure that your heating element ferrules aren't too proud from the outside of the kettle, or else you won't be able to get the squiggly ULHD elements into the kettle, but having said that make sure that you have enough space to get the TC clamp on.....don't ask me why I know this....

              -J.
              Jeremy Reed
              Co-Founder and President, assistant brewer, amateur electrician, plumber, welder, refrigeration tech, and intermediately swell fella
              The North of 48 Brewing Company
              Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

              www.no48.ca

              Comment


              • #8
                We had a nationally-known blacksmith and metal worker attempt some sanitary welds for us. He failed utterly. It's a whole different ball game, and you either play or sit on the sidelines.

                Curiously, it's not really that hard, if you have excellent eyesight and hand-eye coordination (I'm losing both, unfortunately). Most of the hard part is prep--everything has to fit perfectly, so there are no gaps to fill. Then you need to always use an inert gas shield on BOTH sides of the weld. Move fast to keep the heat-affected-zone limited to the weld itself. Sanitary tubing is the hardest, since the gas not only needs to shield the weld from oxygen, but must support the weld itself so it neither sags nor balloons.

                The pros now mostly use nifty tools I've never had access to. We did it all by hand, from fit to finish.
                Timm Turrentine

                Brewerywright,
                Terminal Gravity Brewing,
                Enterprise. Oregon.

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by Jer View Post
                  You're doing exactly what I've done. I pay my guy about 30$ or so per ferrule. It's pretty unofficial, so the price often varies with how much whiskey we've consumed....

                  If all of your desired additions are on the hot side, you don't have to be as worried. I know that I'm gonna get lambasted for saying that, but it's true. If your original welder there ground those smoother, filled in those pits, and then hit them with pickling paste, I'd be happy. If it was something on the cold side in a production setting, I'd push for perfection.

                  Suggestion - get a BK that's bigger than your mash tun. Your mask water + your sparge water is going to be bigger than 55gallons if you maximize your mash tun, and you'll want headspace to limit boilovers.. I started with 3x30 gallon vessels, and now have 30-30-50 to optimize our runs.

                  Also, make sure that your heating element ferrules aren't too proud from the outside of the kettle, or else you won't be able to get the squiggly ULHD elements into the kettle, but having said that make sure that you have enough space to get the TC clamp on.....don't ask me why I know this....

                  -J.
                  These will all be on the hot side, so how strict do I really need to be to pass inspection??


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                  • #10
                    Originally posted by ascension View Post
                    These will all be on the hot side, so how strict do I really need to be to pass inspection??


                    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
                    Where I live the inspectors know SFA about brewery equipment. All they care about is your washable walls and a f-Ing floor drain. It's your own conscience and your customers/critics that make you pay here... I can't speak to USA rules. I personally would have no concerns about using what I described on the hot side.

                    Timm's right, it's actually not that hard. I've self taught over the past year or so - if guess about 80 hours spent pissing around. I used our brew stand build as my first project. I made plenty of errors, but now I know how to prevent them, and fix them.. I still leave my expensive vessels to a pro, but I did put a TC on my CIP pump head a couple weeks ago.

                    Timm's also right about the prep. If your joints are tight before you spark up the TIG torch, it's so easy it feels like cheating. When I cut holes for ferrules I use bi-metal hole saws with some cutting fluid, and then de-burr with a step drill bit.

                    Down there in LA there's gotta be a lot of oilfield welders, no?? With oil at $50 a barrel I bet some would be looking for work...
                    Jeremy Reed
                    Co-Founder and President, assistant brewer, amateur electrician, plumber, welder, refrigeration tech, and intermediately swell fella
                    The North of 48 Brewing Company
                    Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

                    www.no48.ca

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Welders are a dime a dozen around here, but finding one set up for and experienced in sanitary stainless is another story.

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                      • #12
                        In addition to the color on the back side of the weld, I think the guy depends too much on filler rod. Find a welder who can TIG weld them on without filler, or with very little. You don't need a giant fillet on thinwall stainless. I will say that it's much easier to do a fusion butt weld, than try to weld an inside corner, because the arc tends to travel from one wall to the other, and not to the spot where they join. I've seen a home made swaging tool that is used to pull the wall of the vessel out so you can grind it square and do a straight butt weld. As has been said in this thread, you MUST purge BOTH sides of the weld with Argon, and keep the gas flow running several seconds after you taper off the arc. And you have to taper the arc, because otherwise it can leave a pinhole.

                        I had the good fortune to work with a bunch of the best welders I've ever encountered when I lived in San Luis Obispo. I did a lot of orbital TIG welding there, but not much hand welding. One of the guys, named Dave Vrooman, hand-welded these ferrules for me (outside and inside photos). There was no grinding, just a wire brush. The dude's a master with a TIG torch:

                        Click image for larger version

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                        Here's the inside of that same ferrule. Note the penetration is perfect.

                        Click image for larger version

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                        He used to make a two stage bicycle pump entirely by hand out of thinwall stainless. A work of art!

                        Regards,
                        Mike Sharp

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                        • #13
                          I did a little work on it today. Still has a small pit, but looks a lot better.


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                          • #14
                            I assume by "worked on it" you mean you ground it??

                            You cannot make chicken soup out of chicken shit....and that's some science that you can take to the bank.

                            If you wanna fix up that weld you need a TIG torch, 3 tanks of argon, and about 50 hours(or more) of practice. If that interests you, it's worth doing - and it is doable. If I can, so can you. If your trying to do it to save 400$ in welding bills, you're gonna fail miserably.

                            To be pro level that weld needs to be filled, flattened, ground, polished, and pickled/passivated. I can do most of those, but I'm not a pro, so I defer to a TIGwizard.

                            -J.
                            Last edited by Jer; 04-01-2017, 11:58 PM.
                            Jeremy Reed
                            Co-Founder and President, assistant brewer, amateur electrician, plumber, welder, refrigeration tech, and intermediately swell fella
                            The North of 48 Brewing Company
                            Regina, Saskatchewan, Canada

                            www.no48.ca

                            Comment


                            • #15
                              I'm not attempting it myself, nor did the original weld, I was just trying to clean it up a little. I understand that this is unacceptable in the commercial setting and not the proper way to "fix" anything, but we're still going to use it outside of that. I will be sourcing a professional to weld on the kettles that we'll actually be using commercially so that it is done correctly.



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