UL/non-UL approval differences?!?!

[Catfish002]

Is there not a uniform building inspection protocol across the country (USA) for breweries and their equipment? I have seen and talked to breweries that have been approved with non UL listed jet burner brew kettles with totally DIY'd heat shields/equipment and others that were required to have all types of insane build outs and UL listed products. Just interested in why there is such a difference in different locations.

Thanks!

[rdcpro]

Well, there is a uniform electrical code (the NEC), but it's not a government thing, it was written by the National Fire Protection Association. And UL is also not a government entity, they're a private corporation that has published a set of standards, just Like many other standards bodies.

It would be nice if there was a national authority but the problem is that the ultimate authority for whether an installation is acceptable is the individual city, county or whatever entity that has jurisdiction of the location. That means your local building department. And they are governed by the laws and regulations in that jurisdiction.

Since most cities, except a few really large ones, can't afford to figure this stuff out on their own, they basically delegate the rules to the NFPA (the NEC, for electrical installations). In fact, you can't even assume the latest version of the NEC is the one they go by--this is usually set by the City Council. When the building department is ready implement a newer version of the NEC, the Council makes that regulatory change.

Since cities and counties make up their own rules, there's nothing to make them consistent across the country. I'm speaking of the USA, not Canada or other jurisdictions. Any attempt to bring Federal control over this would cause a nationwide riot among the various cities and counties.

And even if the the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) doesn't require, say, UL 508A listing, your insurance company might--this is how UL got into the business.

I can tell you horror stories about this till you fall asleep. Many years ago, I stopped worrying about it; they say you can't fight City Hall, and they're right!

Yes, it's a royal pain in the butt, and the inconsistency is detrimental to both safety and economy. But I was in the business for over 15 years, and developed relationships with all of the building departments and inspectors in my area. This always helps, because your reputation affects the perception of the inspector. They're not electrical engineers, it's not really possible for them to inspect something to be sure it complies with, say, Article 409. So, if they're uncomfortable with an installation because they don't understand it, or it's unfamiliar, and they don't have that "warm fuzzy feeling", the safe way out for them is to say "it needs to be UL listed". But if they know and trust you, there can be a lot of leeway.

Of course, in some cases, they may be simply clueless. There's no way an open jet burner, or something rated for outdoor use only, would be approved for use in a brewery, but it happens. That's why you see Blichmann and others recommend nano's buy a commercial listed stock pot range, and a standard Kitchen range hood. This is familiar to an inspector who looks at restaurant kitchens every day. Most of them have never seen anything like a brewery before.

Regards,
Mike Sharp

[Catfish002]

Wow, thank you for taking the time to write all of that. Very helpful!

Well, there is a uniform electrical code (the NEC), but it's not a government thing, it was written by the National Fire Protection Association. And UL is also not a government entity, they're a private corporation that has published a set of standards, just Like many other standards bodies.

It would be nice if there was a national authority but the problem is that the ultimate authority for whether an installation is acceptable is the individual city, county or whatever entity that has jurisdiction of the location. That means your local building department. And they are governed by the laws and regulations in that jurisdiction.

Since most cities, except a few really large ones, can't afford to figure this stuff out on their own, they basically delegate the rules to the NFPA (the NEC, for electrical installations). In fact, you can't even assume the latest version of the NEC is the one they go by--this is usually set by the City Council. When the building department is ready implement a newer version of the NEC, the Council makes that regulatory change.

Since cities and counties make up their own rules, there's nothing to make them consistent across the country. I'm speaking of the USA, not Canada or other jurisdictions. Any attempt to bring Federal control over this would cause a nationwide riot among the various cities and counties.

And even if the the AHJ (authority having jurisdiction) doesn't require, say, UL 508A listing, your insurance company might--this is how UL got into the business.

I can tell you horror stories about this till you fall asleep. Many years ago, I stopped worrying about it; they say you can't fight City Hall, and they're right!

Yes, it's a royal pain in the butt, and the inconsistency is detrimental to both safety and economy. But I was in the business for over 15 years, and developed relationships with all of the building departments and inspectors in my area. This always helps, because your reputation affects the perception of the inspector. They're not electrical engineers, it's not really possible for them to inspect something to be sure it complies with, say, Article 409. So, if they're uncomfortable with an installation because they don't understand it, or it's unfamiliar, and they don't have that "warm fuzzy feeling", the safe way out for them is to say "it needs to be UL listed". But if they know and trust you, there can be a lot of leeway.

Of course, in some cases, they may be simply clueless. There's no way an open jet burner, or something rated for outdoor use only, would be approved for use in a brewery, but it happens. That's why you see Blichmann and others recommend nano's buy a commercial listed stock pot range, and a standard Kitchen range hood. This is familiar to an inspector who looks at restaurant kitchens every day. Most of them have never seen anything like a brewery before.

Regards,
Mike Sharp