Permission from a church.......

[_]

We have finally located the perfect spot for our brewery. Unfortunately its within 300' from TWO dang churches! I spoke to the city and they said I could request a variance, but obviously it would need to come with the approval of the churches. Has anyone had any experience with this? Just wondering if there is some insight before I go trying to sweet talk servants of the Lord.

[Gila Monster]

We have finally located the perfect spot for our brewery. Unfortunately its within 300' from TWO dang churches! I spoke to the city and they said I could request a variance, but obviously it would need to come with the approval of the churches. Has anyone had any experience with this? Just wondering if there is some insight before I go trying to sweet talk servants of the Lord.

It can be done but it can be very difficult doing so. First you need to identify the religions of the two churches. Some religions don't look down on drinking like other religions do such as the Catholic religion. With them it's more of an excessive use thing they actually frown on. To quote an old expression "know your enemy". If you are opening a brewery which also has a restaurant in it then you can down play the brewery part and present it as more of a restaurant which happens to make it's own beer.

The trick in convincing both of them isn't in approaching them both at the same but in the "divide and conquer" technique. Pick the one most likely to present the least resistance, win them over and ask their help in winning over the other. Since they're in the same neighborhood chances are the minister of each will known each other well and how to best to approach the other.

I'd also be prepared to show how you will be an asset to their community and not a burden as a watering hole for every low life drug in the area that they'll end up having to suffer with. Get involved with your community and be prepared to back to show your appreciation. You need these people to get what you want, they do not need you, but they will if you play your cards and public relations well.

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[Luch15]

church proximity issues

Well having opened 2 breweries that both required some degree of zoning exception, including in one case a rezoning, and both being in close proximity to churches I feel I can offer a little advice.

My first piece of advice is to hire a good and knowledgeable real estate attorney that is very familiar with zoning, your local codes and knows the local officials and has dealt with them before. Regardless of what your local officials tell you there may be nuances in the zoning code and law that don't "obviously" require consent of these churches to allow your business to operate, zoning and city council officials make the rules and the exceptions so getting them on your side is the real key to success as well as making allies everywhere you can, including in the churches.

Second, I sense a pugilistic tone right off the bat from your post that some how these churches are your enemy, not all churches and congregations are the same, in fact, my experience has been that no two are truly alike and the level of acceptance of our type of business varies as wildly with churches as it does with individual people. If you are concerned with the possibility that these churches may not welcome you, you should open a dialogue. Go in with an open mind and perhaps invite the pastor or members of the church to a brewery similar to what you are wanting to open so that they can see what it is you are trying to do. At the end of the day all you can do is be honest, open minded and willing to compromise to get what you want. If they are going to be closed minded and not willing to welcome you there is nothing more that you will be able to do to change their minds but as I said in the last paragraph its probably not the end of the line.

I have to say that just because it says 'church' on the building it doesn't mean that the people that are in there are not going to accept you because you drink or sell or make alcohol. The craft beer industry has been very accepting and open to all kinds of ideas and people and it has contributed in no small way to our success. I would suggest instead of invoking Sun Tzu and the art of war with "know your enemy" maybe go with some Ghandi, "be the change you wish to see in the world". Take if from a guy who doesn't go to church, isn't particularly religious but has managed to open two breweries steps from churches in the the deep south and there is even a regular 'beers and Bibles' event in our tap room. Not that it has been all my doing. Some churches were welcoming, some not so much. Best of luck.

[HumulusSapiens]

It can be done but it can be very difficult doing so. First you need to identify the religions of the two churches. Some religions don't look down on drinking like other religions do such as the Catholic religion. With them it's more of an excessive use thing they actually frown on. To quote an old expression "know your enemy".

Good advice regarding 'knowing the enemy', but I would say the Catholic church is probably one of the more alcohol-friendly churches out there - heck, we drink as part of the service! An offer to support whatever their annual fundraiser is (auction, festival, whatever) with a bit of your product would probably seal the deal. On the other hand, if you're dealing with Mormons or Baptists, good luck

[Gila Monster]

Good advice regarding 'knowing the enemy', but I would say the Catholic church is probably one of the more alcohol-friendly churches out there - heck, we drink as part of the service! An offer to support whatever their annual fundraiser is (auction, festival, whatever) with a bit of your product would probably seal the deal. On the other hand, if you're dealing with Mormons or Baptists, good luck

[emoji2]

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[beerguy1]

I bet they serve wine

[sjcarter]

I am a churchgoer. I count the offering at our church. Our pastor was once driving down the main highway to our church building and saw a car in front that said "drink local beer" and "Alabama moms deserve midwives". His comment was "if that isn't one of my congregants I will be shocked" just as the car turned into our parking lot

Small, non-denominational Gospel led church. As the gentleman from Engine 15 said, don't assume that "church" means "anti". It depends on the denomination and the specifics of the local community.

To wrap up my anecdote: my pastor is fully supportive of my working towards opening a brewpub, even if he won't partake of my main product. Some of the other pastoral staff will be helping take up his share, though!

[_]

Church proximity

Well having opened 2 breweries that both required some degree of zoning exception, including in one case a rezoning, and both being in close proximity to churches I feel I can offer a little advice.

My first piece of advice is to hire a good and knowledgeable real estate attorney that is very familiar with zoning, your local codes and knows the local officials and has dealt with them before. Regardless of what your local officials tell you there may be nuances in the zoning code and law that don't "obviously" require consent of these churches to allow your business to operate, zoning and city council officials make the rules and the exceptions so getting them on your side is the real key to success as well as making allies everywhere you can, including in the churches.

Second, I sense a pugilistic tone right off the bat from your post that some how these churches are your enemy, not all churches and congregations are the same, in fact, my experience has been that no two are truly alike and the level of acceptance of our type of business varies as wildly with churches as it does with individual people. If you are concerned with the possibility that these churches may not welcome you, you should open a dialogue. Go in with an open mind and perhaps invite the pastor or members of the church to a brewery similar to what you are wanting to open so that they can see what it is you are trying to do. At the end of the day all you can do is be honest, open minded and willing to compromise to get what you want. If they are going to be closed minded and not willing to welcome you there is nothing more that you will be able to do to change their minds but as I said in the last paragraph its probably not the end of the line.

I have to say that just because it says 'church' on the building it doesn't mean that the people that are in there are not going to accept you because you drink or sell or make alcohol. The craft beer industry has been very accepting and open to all kinds of ideas and people and it has contributed in no small way to our success. I would suggest instead of invoking Sun Tzu and the art of war with "know your enemy" maybe go with some Ghandi, "be the change you wish to see in the world". Take if from a guy who doesn't go to church, isn't particularly religious but has managed to open two breweries steps from churches in the the deep south and there is even a regular 'beers and Bibles' event in our tap room. Not that it has been all my doing. Some churches were welcoming, some not so much. Best of luck.

Thanks so much for the input. Not sure what I said that was pugilistic? Just disappointed that the spot that popped up on the market was so close to the churches. One is a Greek Orthodox and the other is a Presbyterian. Neither of which condemn alcohol, from what I understand. I agree wholeheartedly that taking the friendly outstretched hand approach is the way to go. I will probably approach them before getting any attorneys involved. I think creating a relationship and asking for a favor, goes much further in the community than lawyering up and going to battle. There's also a good possibility that the way the measurement is calculated could exceed the 300' distance as well. But I'm not sure if I even want to take that route. It would almost feel like we were the unwanted guy at the party who refused to leave. Especially since we don't have any community following (to speak of), I'm afraid we could start off on the wrong foot.

[Luch15]

Thanks so much for the input. Not sure what I said that was pugilistic? Just disappointed that the spot that popped up on the market was so close to the churches. One is a Greek Orthodox and the other is a Presbyterian. Neither of which condemn alcohol, from what I understand. I agree wholeheartedly that taking the friendly outstretched hand approach is the way to go. I will probably approach them before getting any attorneys involved. I think creating a relationship and asking for a favor, goes much further in the community than lawyering up and going to battle. There's also a good possibility that the way the measurement is calculated could exceed the 300' distance as well. But I'm not sure if I even want to take that route. It would almost feel like we were the unwanted guy at the party who refused to leave. Especially since we don't have any community following (to speak of), I'm afraid we could start off on the wrong foot.

I agree completely, I wasn't trying to say you should go to war, quite the opposite actually. Just that we had a very friendly relationship with one church and very contentious one with the other but it wasn't for a lack of trying. I just read your post and it sounded like you were already in a fighting mood, obviously I read it wrong, sometimes hard to get peoples true meaning from written things, like text. LOL. I think this is the correct approach but I still think you should consult an attorney so you know exactly what you are up against from a zoning stand point. There could well be other issues other than just your proximity to churches. Certainly was in our experience.

[silveravnt]

As a Baptist, I can tell you my pastor would not give you anything. The pastor across the street at the Christian Church however has been at my house for a few brew nights and had partaken. In other words you won't know till you try.


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[wailingguitar]

Funny how different things can be from place to place. We're in a small city in Alabama with two or three churches right close to the brewery. The city counsel said it was up to the churches to say something if they objected, nobody said anything in the timeframe we were given, and we just went on ahead.

[idylldon]

look down on drinking like other religions do such as the Catholic religion.

Sorry, but this couldn't be further from my experience. I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic school until 8th grade, and was an altar boy. I can state unequivocally that the Irish priests were some of the hardest drinking guys I've ever encountered. They could also cuss like a sailor on leave when the occasion called for it. I've been away from the church for decades so maybe it has changed, but as someone else said alcohol is part of the sacrament. Hell, all of the altar boys would always fill that chalice as much as possible. If we didn't, the priest would signal to put more in if we somehow fell short.

Cheers,
--
Don

[Gila Monster]

Sorry, but this couldn't be further from my experience. I grew up Catholic, went to Catholic school until 8th grade, and was an altar boy. I can state unequivocally that the Irish priests were some of the hardest drinking guys I've ever encountered. They could also cuss like a sailor on leave when the occasion called for it. I've been away from the church for decades so maybe it has changed, but as someone else said alcohol is part of the sacrament. Hell, all of the altar boys would always fill that chalice as much as possible. If we didn't, the priest would signal to put more in if we somehow fell short.

Cheers,
--
Don

If you're going to quote me at least quote the entire comment. What I was trying to say and may not have said well enough for people who to split hairs and make mountains out of mole hills is that the Catholic faith does not look down on it like other faiths do and yes most of the Catholics I know enjoy a good drink unlike the attitude of shall we say Jehovah Witnesses. Also you might have chosen to ask me what I meant by what I said and not just assumed you know every thing about what others are thinking.

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[BrewinLou]

We have a church as our next door neighbor. They have been wonderful to work with. The only time we had any issue was our first big street fest happened on a day there was a wedding. It all turned out great as the wedding party joined in the brew fest after the wedding. We have contacted them and worked together with them on every event since to ensure we do not disturb their events, and they do not ours. We also have a giant painting of the last supper that was left by a previous tenant hanging on our wall closest to the church. Makes for great photo ops on brewery tours.