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  • #16
    Originally posted by AT-JeffT View Post
    I've not heard of using a spray ball to pasteurize a tank. Typically you would only use chemical sanitizers through a spray ball. You would fill a tank to the brim when using water to pasteurize it. Have you taken a temperature of at the outlet of the fv at the end of the cycle? I'm guessing that water is cooling down too much to be an effective sanitizer.

    Hmm, recirculating the wort is non-traditional but I can't see why it wouldn't work. I would be more comfortable with a water recirc beforehand and skipping the wort recirc though.
    He is right - if the temperature of your water coming out of HLT is 175F - by the time it gets through spray ball and hits the insides of the FV - it may be as low as 150-160F (didn't do a calculation - just freeballing that). Fill your FV with 190F water to the brim, let sit for 20minutes.
    Ryan
    Viridian Brewing Company
    [Brewery-In-Planning]

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    • #17
      Thanks for all the replies and help trying to figure this out.

      The water coming from our tankless water heater is 185, by the time it hits the spray ball it is 175-180, by the time it hits the bottom after running for a few minutes it is 170-175. We also spray the inside with a spray bottle of star san after the hot water.

      I'll try running boiling water thru the cold side next brew instead of the boiling wort.

      I like the idea of the ATP tester, will look into this too.

      I believe it may be acetobacter because it seems to take off almost immediately, so, aerobic. And it smells and tastes vinegary. I'm not 100% though, I have not confirmed it is acetobacter

      We crush grain in a separate room, we usually measure out grain in the back room of our brewery which is in production area and does create some dust now that I think about it. Will eliminate this going forward.

      I also have 3 new plastic 3bbl conicals on order

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      • #18
        Originally posted by jrtredo View Post
        Thanks for all the replies and help trying to figure this out.

        The water coming from our tankless water heater is 185, by the time it hits the spray ball it is 175-180, by the time it hits the bottom after running for a few minutes it is 170-175. We also spray the inside with a spray bottle of star san after the hot water.

        I'll try running boiling water thru the cold side next brew instead of the boiling wort.

        I like the idea of the ATP tester, will look into this too.

        I believe it may be acetobacter because it seems to take off almost immediately, so, aerobic. And it smells and tastes vinegary. I'm not 100% though, I have not confirmed it is acetobacter

        We crush grain in a separate room, we usually measure out grain in the back room of our brewery which is in production area and does create some dust now that I think about it. Will eliminate this going forward.

        I also have 3 new plastic 3bbl conicals on order

        Just to be sure, I referenced a wiley library white paper on the thermal point of acetobacter - looks to be about 130 F - assumed that you hold it for 20minutes. That being said - my concern would be by using the spray ball, the hot water may not be making contact with all of the surfaces in the FV, for a long enough time period. If I were you, I would fill each of those FV up with 180F water to the absolute brim, hold it for 30minutes. After you are convinced that those badboys are clean and good to go - put test batches in them before using them again. Fill them with some 1030 OG starter wort, couple gallons - give them a few days and do some lab tests to see if the acetobacter is back.

        Also, in case you're interested, here is the white paper:

        Ryan
        Viridian Brewing Company
        [Brewery-In-Planning]

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        • #19
          I will do that and our new conicals should ship next week which we needed anyways as they are bigger. Acetobacter sounds like a tough bugger.

          Does anyone have any experience with the ATP product like the one below?

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          • #20
            It looks like the link I pasted was just for the ATP swabs, $1500+ for the reader is going to be out of our price range right now

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            • #21
              Originally posted by jrtredo View Post

              I believe it may be acetobacter because it seems to take off almost immediately, so, aerobic. And it smells and tastes vinegary. I'm not 100% though, I have not confirmed it is acetobacter.

              I also have 3 new plastic 3bbl conicals on order

              A few things.

              1) The LMDA plates should make it pretty easy to figure out if acetobacter is your issue. Plate some of the contaminated beer and report back with the results. There are a few easy things we can do to confirm/rule out acetobacter.

              2)Throwing new equipment at the problem is throwing good money after bad. A contamination issue of this magnitude will most likely be glaringly obvious when you find it. Correctly diagnosing the issue first will save you time and money.

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              • #22
                Have you taken pH readings of the Wort Stability tests? I don't believe acetobacter is responsible for the pressure build up in your samples. If you find a sharp pH drop (not due to yeast) then that will be most helpful.
                Last edited by AT-JeffT; 08-15-2017, 05:14 PM.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by AT-JeffT View Post
                  Have you taken pH readings of the Wort Stability tests? I don't believe acetobacter is responsible for the pressure build up in your samples. If you find a sharp pH drop (not due to yeast) then that will be most helpful.
                  I think this is good advice as well as the post above it.

                  Pressure in your samples could simply be due to temperature changes. Measure pH. If your smelling vinegar (and you don't use PAA), then its usually acetobacter (or someone has salad dressing). pH should confirm.

                  I think you should use a pH swing in your ferms to feel the safest. Caustic wash with 165*F + water, rinse, then use a good sanitizer (iodophor, or my fav, the smelly PAA). Then plate and incubate samples from your fermentor to check for growth on plates. Swab where the sprayball connects to the top of the ferm, and the rinse water at the bottom valve.

                  Your new ferms will also give you an idea of where to look. No problems in new ferms means you have an issue in your old ones. Problems means you need to walk through everything again.

                  You can do plating of swabs from all parts of the process to help track it down. Take this as an opportunity to learn how to make agar plates and go crazy with it (they aren't that hard). It's good lab practice anyhow.

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                  • #24
                    I will plate a sample of the contaminated beer on a pre-made LMDA plate tonight.

                    I have not taken the ph of the wort stability samples. I will tonight, but maybe it's too late now.

                    I like the idea of the big ph swing for ferms, we have never used caustic in them.

                    I'm not familiar yet with swabbing. Do I swab the area with a sterile swab, then dip in saline and then pipette onto a plate?

                    I have ordered HLP as well for detection after reading the article below, but will look into making my own LMDA plates as they are a bit expensive

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                    • #25
                      Originally posted by jrtredo View Post
                      I will plate a sample of the contaminated beer on a pre-made LMDA plate tonight.

                      I have not taken the ph of the wort stability samples. I will tonight, but maybe it's too late now.

                      I like the idea of the big ph swing for ferms, we have never used caustic in them.

                      I'm not familiar yet with swabbing. Do I swab the area with a sterile swab, then dip in saline and then pipette onto a plate?

                      I have ordered HLP as well for detection after reading the article below, but will look into making my own LMDA plates as they are a bit expensive
                      http://www.terifahrendorf.com/Lab-Manual.pdf
                      Swabbing:

                      1) wet swab with sterile water. Saline might work.

                      2)Swab surface in question. Twist swab so all of the swab is in contact with the surface.

                      3) Rub swab on plate, again twisting the swab so all of the surface contacts the plate.


                      I 2nd the idea of caustic, it's very effective. What are you using currently?


                      Perhaps you are aware, but HLP will only grow Lacto and Pedio. So if your issue is acetobacter, it won't grow in HLP. It is a great idea to do an HLP test currently to rule out Lacto and Pedio, as we still haven't confirmed what microbe is responsible for the off flavors. HLP will be good to use regularly in the future.
                      Last edited by AT-JeffT; 08-16-2017, 12:19 PM.

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                      • #26
                        Great, thanks, I'll order some sterile swabs if I can't find locally.

                        I was not aware of the HLP not detecting acetobacter. The article above indicated it detected Generic aerobic bacteria as well. Will stick with the LMDA plates for now.

                        PBW is the only cleaning chemical we have been using in our ferms

                        thanks again

                        Originally posted by AT-JeffT View Post
                        Swabbing:

                        1) wet swab with sterile water. Saline might work.

                        2)Swab surface in question. Twist swab so all of the swab is in contact with the surface.

                        3) Rub swab on plate, again twisting the swab so all of the surface contacts the plate.


                        I 2nd the idea of caustic, it's very effective. What are you using currently?


                        Perhaps you are aware, but HLP will only grow Lacto and Pedio. So if your issue is acetobacter, it won't grow in HLP. It is a great idea to do an HLP currently to rule out Lacto and Pedio, as we still haven't confirmed what microbe is responsible for the off flavors. HLP will be good to use regularly in the future.

                        Comment


                        • #27
                          Originally posted by jrtredo View Post
                          Great, thanks, I'll order some sterile swabs if I can't find locally.

                          I was not aware of the HLP not detecting acetobacter. The article above indicated it detected Generic aerobic bacteria as well. Will stick with the LMDA plates for now.

                          PBW is the only cleaning chemical we have been using in our ferms

                          thanks again
                          In tracking a source of contamination down, you typically want to start with plated liquid samples, then move to swabs once you've isolated which piece of equipment is responsible. Swabs can only do a very small area, liquid samples tell you about the entire vessel.

                          Yeah, the wording in the HLP Lab Manual is a bit confusing. Sometimes aerobic microbes will grown in HLP, but that is not it's designed purpose and you can't count on it. So do a HLP test to see if it is Lacto or Pedio, it it comes back negative, stick to the LMDA.


                          Caustic will definitely be more effective than PBW. It's pH is 1pH more alkaline than pbw, which should equate to ~10 times better cleaning. However, like I said earlier, a contamination issue of this magnitude should be obvious once you find it. That is you'll probably find something that is very slimey. If you visually inspect you rank post cleaning and don't see any issues, it's probably not the source. But, it's easy enough to do a caustic cycle so why not.

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                          • #28
                            May I suggest you very careful check inside your brew hoses, in side for cuts, breaks, blisters, useing a plumber pipe scope, or bore scope, look very carefully, they sometimes can be very hard to see other time just slap you in the face??? Also check your TC fitting & clamps, the gap between your hose & TC fitting???

                            Some cuts or blister may only open up under flow !!!

                            Have you checked that yet ???

                            Gregg Culhane

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                            • #29
                              I've replaced all cold side hoses, cleaned fittings, etc. I should be able to plate each piece of equipment by just pumping water through it, and collecting those samples, correct? I think I'll try that tonight.


                              Originally posted by gculhane View Post
                              May I suggest you very careful check inside your brew hoses, in side for cuts, breaks, blisters, useing a plumber pipe scope, or bore scope, look very carefully, they sometimes can be very hard to see other time just slap you in the face??? Also check your TC fitting & clamps, the gap between your hose & TC fitting???

                              Some cuts or blister may only open up under flow !!!

                              Have you checked that yet ???

                              Gregg Culhane

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                If you are heat sanitizing and still getting infections, you aren't heat sanitizing properly. The beauty of heat is that it doesn't so much matter if things are clean, as long as they get hot, they are dead. If you are having infections this bad there is some glaring problem in your cleaning/sanitizing SOP. Frankly, I can't believe that you are only losing a couple of degrees of heat while recirculating 175F water through a spray ball, it seems likely you are probably never getting the walls of the tank hot enough to sanitize it. Even then, I'm surprised that poor heating of a visibly clean surface would be enough to give you an infection bad enough to show up this quickly. Is there anyplace in your plastic tanks that is a blind spot from the spray ball? I expect that there has to be in order for this to be happening. In my experience beer almost never shows an infection prior to packaging and it would take a seriously nasty spot in your tank to give you an infection bad enough to show up during primary. Also, as someone mentioned earlier, if this is indeed acetobacter, then your beer has to be getting oxidized for it to have an effect. I don't think you could chalk that up to the oxygen introduced prior to fermentation either because acetobacter metabolizes alcohol into acetic acid, so the yeast has to consume that O2 and start making alcohol before the acetobacter can become active. So your beer would have to be getting oxidized post runoff, in the tank, for that to happen, which means you have more problems than just poor sanitation.

                                Follow the good advice a couple of people have given and FILL those tanks with 180F water, at least then you know they will be sanitized, with plastic tanks anything less than that is asking for trouble. I bet that if you do this you will finally have a clean batch.

                                Good luck.

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