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  • #46
    We got our new HX and did a test batch with malt extract on Saturday afternoon. Ferm had all fittings removed and cleaned in PBW, then re-installed. Then hot caustic through spray ball for 30 minutes, hot water rinse, then star san through spray ball, and sprayed with bottle to insure, no areas were missed.

    Wort stability samples were collected. After this morning, only one shows activity, sample taken from ferm. See below. All samples were plated as well. No growth on any of those yet. Click image for larger version

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    • #47
      Thank you for sharing. As I just mentioned in my last post, the issue may be isolated now to the plastic conicals. It's funny because thinking back, it seems our problems started around the time we switched from star san only to heat sanitizing with 180 degree water through the spray ball for 20-30 mins.

      Maybe 180 is too hot for the plastic? I was going to grab another ferm tonight and fill to the brim with hot water as a few people recommended here, then plate. I also have a 3bbl ferm that we purchased from another brewery but haven't used for beer yet. I will sanitize that and plate as well.

      We have 3 new 3bbl plastic conicals that should ship this week. Will definitely take your advice and stop physically cleaning the insides of the tanks. I want to put together the best cleaning SOP's we can for maintaining our new plastic conicals.

      Our old 60 gallon ferms will prob collect chill water to be re-used or go to the trash. I think they are past their useful life.

      The pic below is from the 10 gallon extract batch we did on saturday, smells very strong like it is already spoiling, we pitched 2 packs of safeale 05Click image for larger version

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      Originally posted by Junkyard View Post
      I dealt with some nasty infections when I was just starting out 4 years ago. The cause was plastic fermenters. The batch started spoiling before primary ferment was over just like you are describing. What I realized was bacteria was building up inside the pores of the plastic. My star San CIP wasn't contacting the bacteria in the deep pores of the plastic, so we had to start heating the fermenters up with hot water. Our SOP for a 60 gallon fermenter was to use 2 or 3- 5 gallon buckets of water, one at a time, and circulate through the spray ball each one until your temp stabilizes. You can feel the outsides of the plastic to verify its getting very hot. Or if you have a thermowell, use your digital probe to verify your over 150F then hit it with a bucket of paracetic to cool it down, drain and transfer in. I would avoid using any scrubby pads on your fermenters, your chemicals and spray ball should be doing all the work for you.

      Like another poster said, this has to be a very bad infection for your beer to be souring this fast with a new pitch of yeast.

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      • #48
        I reached out to plastic mart and they told me the tanks can withstand an operating temperature of 120°F and a spike up to 140°F

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        • #49
          Lots of posts since I've checked back.

          The HX should definitely see cleaner after every brew day. Since this is technically the beginning of the cold side, it can't be skipped.

          Star San isn't suitable for CIP; It foams too much. Five Star Saniclean is what you want for CIP use. It has a 3min contact time vs the 1min for Star San, FYI.

          I'd say your best bet is to focus on the HX and fermenters. I'll second the advice of discontinuing the practice of using abrasive pads on the inside of the FVs.

          If your FVs can't handle 180F then I'd start thinking of other solutions for fermentation(totes, kegs, SS conicals, etc).
          Last edited by AT-JeffT; 08-21-2017, 08:52 PM.

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          • #50
            I can understand why plastimart gives those numbers, but We had the same plastimart conicals, and heated them up to at least 150 with a sprayball, the plastic held up fine, and it was the only way to sanitize them, as they were porous and star San or paracetic acid wouldn't make proper contact. I had never filled ours to the brim with hot water because I would be worried the plastic being softer from the heat and the weight of the liquid would deform them. I would advise cycling hot buckets through them with a spray ball until at least 140F stable reading on your thermowell, that'll do the trick.

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            • #51
              Originally posted by Junkyard View Post
              I can understand why plastimart gives those numbers, but We had the same plastimart conicals, and heated them up to at least 150 with a sprayball, the plastic held up fine, and it was the only way to sanitize them, as they were porous and star San or paracetic acid wouldn't make proper contact. I had never filled ours to the brim with hot water because I would be worried the plastic being softer from the heat and the weight of the liquid would deform them. I would advise cycling hot buckets through them with a spray ball until at least 140F stable reading on your thermowell, that'll do the trick.
              I'm concerned that the low temperatures won't have a sufficient kill rate to reach sanitary levels.

              Check out this wiki article about pasteurizing beer.

              You'd have to hold the tank at 150F for quite a number of minutes. Having a few cool spots near or below 140F would mean it would require at least 15min hold time.

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              • #52
                Not what I wanted to wake up to this morning....Pre FV wort stability sample taken from hose before connecting to FV is showing activity....Post HX plate, Pre FV plate, and post FV plate are showing activity... I don't get it.....

                We had some TC ferrules welded on our BK a few months ago, and the welds aren't great, maybe breeding bacteria toward the end of the chill? I guess we will do an extract test batch using our mash tun as our BK. Running out of ideas here......Click image for larger version

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                • #53
                  I would update your CIP and SIP methods. If you are seeing activity post Heat-X then there is little need to look further downstream. Work your way back.

                  There likely isn't much between your kettle and Heat-X, but look for any dead legs or questionable connections.

                  As someone else has said, pack your Heat-X. I prefer using PAA after a 20min caustic cycle myself. On every brew.

                  It is also a good idea to burst your exit valve off the Heat-X during the cycles to loosen any debris stuck inside. Leave caustic in overnight if you are particularly concerned (such as this case).

                  I have yet to see an organism grow after a 24hr soak in a pH12 liquid.

                  Weld on your kettle shouldn't be of concern if it is reaching boiling temperature for 20mins or longer.

                  Also, typically you would not count micro-colonies (sub 1mm, I believe) on plates as significant growth, as we are not making a sterile product and there is chance for spores during plating.

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                  • #54
                    Originally posted by AT-JeffT View Post
                    I'm concerned that the low temperatures won't have a sufficient kill rate to reach sanitary levels.

                    Check out this wiki article about pasteurizing beer.

                    You'd have to hold the tank at 150F for quite a number of minutes. Having a few cool spots near or below 140F would mean it would require at least 15min hold time.
                    It always worked for us, could be the fast temperature changes, or it could be that when we first dumped the third 180+ bucket in and started the cycle the tank walls saw 170+ for a few seconds which would do the trick. Either way 150 is going to knock down a significant portion of the bacteria, then dump a bucket of cold paracetic in to swing the temperature and I'd have a hard time believing he'd have spoilage in his primary ferment again. I can almost garauntee his problem lies in the plastic.

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                    • #55
                      Yes, are most definitely updating our CIP and SIP methods.

                      Correct, only a hose from BK to pump, and hose from pump to HX. I took the pump apart again last night, it's clean.

                      The thing is, the last test batch we did, showed activity in the wort stability sample from the cold side of the HX after about 60 hours. The HX was brand new and we had run 185 water thru for 20 mins.

                      OK, on the plates, will have to determine what is acceptable after what amount of time, and I'm just keeping them upside down in my kitchen at room temp

                      Originally posted by UnFermentable View Post
                      I would update your CIP and SIP methods. If you are seeing activity post Heat-X then there is little need to look further downstream. Work your way back.

                      There likely isn't much between your kettle and Heat-X, but look for any dead legs or questionable connections.

                      As someone else has said, pack your Heat-X. I prefer using PAA after a 20min caustic cycle myself. On every brew.

                      It is also a good idea to burst your exit valve off the Heat-X during the cycles to loosen any debris stuck inside. Leave caustic in overnight if you are particularly concerned (such as this case).

                      I have yet to see an organism grow after a 24hr soak in a pH12 liquid.

                      Weld on your kettle shouldn't be of concern if it is reaching boiling temperature for 20mins or longer.

                      Also, typically you would not count micro-colonies (sub 1mm, I believe) on plates as significant growth, as we are not making a sterile product and there is chance for spores during plating.

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                      • #56
                        Agree, it just still bothers me that I'm seeing activity in my samples before the ferm. Maybe the levels I'm seeing are acceptable?

                        It seems most people are using paracetic, is this a better sanitizer than star-san/saniclean?

                        Last night, we removed our kegerator from the brewery as we had moved this in around the time spoilage started happening, it was a used unit. We have the ozonator running again in case this is all airborne.



                        Originally posted by Junkyard View Post
                        It always worked for us, could be the fast temperature changes, or it could be that when we first dumped the third 180+ bucket in and started the cycle the tank walls saw 170+ for a few seconds which would do the trick. Either way 150 is going to knock down a significant portion of the bacteria, then dump a bucket of cold paracetic in to swing the temperature and I'd have a hard time believing he'd have spoilage in his primary ferment again. I can almost garauntee his problem lies in the plastic.

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                        • #57
                          Do the most recent plate only have mold on them? Mold can't grow in beer, It's can spoil beer by it's by products but you need a lot of mold for that. BTW, don't open any plate with mold growing, you don't want to release those spore into the air and/or breath them in.

                          If those plates only have mold, I wouldn't be too concerned about them.

                          I'm still thinking the off flavors you are tasting were from the bacteria on the Wit Keg plate. See if you can track down that bacteria.

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                          • #58
                            Thanks Jeff, It appears to just be mold, I will post updated pics of the plates later today. The wort stability samples post HX and after have activity though and are building up pressure that I need to release at least once a day. I have a baseline for the ph too, will take the ph of the wort samples and post back

                            But you are right, no colonies of the smooth bacteria like on the porter plates either.

                            Originally posted by AT-JeffT View Post
                            Do the most recent plate only have mold on them? Mold can't grow in beer, It's can spoil beer by it's by products but you need a lot of mold for that. BTW, don't open any plate with mold growing, you don't want to release those spore into the air and/or breath them in.

                            If those plates only have mold, I wouldn't be too concerned about them.

                            I'm still thinking the off flavors you are tasting were from the bacteria on the Wit Keg plate. See if you can track down that bacteria.

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                            • #59
                              Originally posted by jrtredo View Post
                              Thanks Jeff, It appears to just be mold, I will post updated pics of the plates later today. The wort stability samples post HX and after have activity though and are building up pressure that I need to release at least once a day. I have a baseline for the ph too, will take the ph of the wort samples and post back

                              But you are right, no colonies of the smooth bacteria like on the porter plates either.
                              No need for extra pictures if the colonies are fuzzy. We can assume they are mold.

                              Wort stability tests aren't as accurate as plating. The stability test relies on the ability to clean and sanitize the container/jar. Plates used with good technique should be sterile. If you're comfortable, try tasting the wort tests and see if they exhibit the same off flavor as your beer. If not, you can continue to search downstream.

                              Good work so far, we've got a ton more info than when we started. Hopefully closing in on the source soon.

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                              • #60
                                I will taste the samples tonight, thanks for all your help

                                Originally posted by AT-JeffT View Post
                                No need for extra pictures if the colonies are fuzzy. We can assume they are mold.

                                Wort stability tests aren't as accurate as plating. The stability test relies on the ability to clean and sanitize the container/jar. Plates used with good technique should be sterile. If you're comfortable, try tasting the wort tests and see if they exhibit the same off flavor as your beer. If not, you can continue to search downstream.

                                Good work so far, we've got a ton more info than when we started. Hopefully closing in on the source soon.

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