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PBW is not strong enough!!

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  • PBW is not strong enough!!

    Hi all,

    After making hopped and especially ginger ciders, I find that running PBW though CIP doesn't get the flavour out. You can still taste hop and/or ginger, even after cycling PBW through the CIP multiple times, and for a good long time. Can anyone recommend an alternative to PBW, maybe something stronger, or an additive of some kind that can help me to clean the tank?

    Thanks all!

    Mike

  • #2
    I use Birko's BruREze and have never had an issue with flavors being left behind. If you like PBW for it's ease and safe handling, try BruREze.

    Comment


    • #3
      Why not a caustic? Something that is chelated, with a good surfactant package.

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      • #4
        A formulated chlorinated caustic cleaner will be much more effective. However, I'm guessing it's not the cleaner that is causing your flavor carry-over. Most likely, it's soft parts, or CIP shadows.

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        • #5
          Originally posted by AT-JeffT View Post
          A formulated chlorinated caustic cleaner will be much more effective. However, I'm guessing it's not the cleaner that is causing your flavor carry-over. Most likely, it's soft parts, or CIP shadows.
          I strongly recommend against chlorinated caustics, if by any chance you mix an acid or cip with out a proper an full purge of the concentrated co2 in the tank, it will evolve chlorine gas and it will destroy anything and everything it touches. Stainless especially. I have seen it happen(not at my brewery, but at someone elses), it is not worth it to even risk.

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          • #6
            Originally posted by jebzter View Post
            I strongly recommend against chlorinated caustics, if by any chance you mix an acid or cip with out a proper an full purge of the concentrated co2 in the tank, it will evolve chlorine gas and it will destroy anything and everything it touches. Stainless especially. I have seen it happen(not at my brewery, but at someone elses), it is not worth it to even risk.
            I have used formulated caustics in my brewery for over 15 years without a single issue. Chlorine is an oxidizer and works at lower temperatures, caustic really starts working well at 150f and yes NEVER mix acids and chlorine. I would however be cautious just randomly mixing chlorine and caustics it can cause issues
            Mike Eme
            Brewmaster

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            • #7
              Originally posted by jebzter View Post
              I strongly recommend against chlorinated caustics, if by any chance you mix an acid or cip with out a proper an full purge of the concentrated co2 in the tank, it will evolve chlorine gas and it will destroy anything and everything it touches. Stainless especially. I have seen it happen(not at my brewery, but at someone elses), it is not worth it to even risk.
              It comes down to your risk tolerance. Certainly know the risks before using it.

              It was the only solution to a problem we had a while back. After 10+ years of using a PBW-like product we has bronze colored silicone stains in our fermenters. We tried caustic and it didn't touch it after a number of cycles. Chlorinated caustic got it off after one cycle.

              We use it as a nuclear option in our brewery. We try and use it twice a year on our tanks and after positive micro results.

              Comment


              • #8
                Originally posted by wailingguitar View Post
                I use Birko's BruREze and have never had an issue with flavors being left behind. If you like PBW for it's ease and safe handling, try BruREze.

                Thanks for the tip. I'm definitely encouraged by the ease of use and safe handling. Do you have an idea why it might be better than PBW? Definitely worth a try. I wonder if I can find it in Canada!!

                Mike

                Comment


                • #9
                  Originally posted by AT-JeffT View Post
                  A formulated chlorinated caustic cleaner will be much more effective. However, I'm guessing it's not the cleaner that is causing your flavor carry-over. Most likely, it's soft parts, or CIP shadows.
                  Hey Jeff, thanks for your thoughts. When you say soft parts, I'm not sure what you mean. I can only think of the carb stone...but I can taste ginger in the rinse water when the carb stone is taken out. I don't think it's the fittings. Cleaning those separately doesn't change much. What else might soft parts refer to? And, are "shadows" areas that the CIp spray doesn't touch?

                  Thanks again. Mike

                  Comment


                  • #10
                    Originally posted by jebzter View Post
                    I strongly recommend against chlorinated caustics, if by any chance you mix an acid or cip with out a proper an full purge of the concentrated co2 in the tank, it will evolve chlorine gas and it will destroy anything and everything it touches. Stainless especially. I have seen it happen(not at my brewery, but at someone elses), it is not worth it to even risk.
                    Thanks for the warning!! This certainly turns me off the idea. Are there non-chlorinated caustics out there? (Is chlorinated caustic what people standardly refer to just as "caustic"?

                    Thanks again, this is truly helpful.

                    Mike

                    Comment


                    • #11
                      Originally posted by AT-JeffT View Post
                      It comes down to your risk tolerance. Certainly know the risks before using it.

                      It was the only solution to a problem we had a while back. After 10+ years of using a PBW-like product we has bronze colored silicone stains in our fermenters. We tried caustic and it didn't touch it after a number of cycles. Chlorinated caustic got it off after one cycle.

                      We use it as a nuclear option in our brewery. We try and use it twice a year on our tanks and after positive micro results.
                      Thanks! Given my risk aversion, I think if I use stuff like this it will be on an annual type basis. That way I could take the time to be extra careful and do it myself so nothing goes awry!

                      Cheers,
                      Mike

                      Comment


                      • #12
                        Originally posted by Mike Lachelt View Post
                        Hey Jeff, thanks for your thoughts. When you say soft parts, I'm not sure what you mean. I can only think of the carb stone...but I can taste ginger in the rinse water when the carb stone is taken out. I don't think it's the fittings. Cleaning those separately doesn't change much. What else might soft parts refer to? And, are "shadows" areas that the CIp spray doesn't touch?

                        Thanks again. Mike
                        Mike,

                        Yes CIP shadows are areas that are missed or have inadequate coverage from the CIP system/spray ball.

                        Soft parts are anything non-stainless. In a fermenter, that's mostly your manway gasket.

                        Comment


                        • #13
                          Originally posted by wailingguitar View Post
                          I use Birko's BruREze and have never had an issue with flavors being left behind. If you like PBW for it's ease and safe handling, try BruREze.
                          I switched from PBW to Bru-R-Ez and had to go back to PBW. My tanks were visually dirty after my normal CIP routine with the Birko product. I don't think PBW is strong enough so I switched, but there were still traces of hops that were not cleaned until we went back to PBW. The owner is so irritated at the distributor that I even have to stop using the Birko products that do work well. Just my 2 cents.

                          Comment


                          • #14
                            Originally posted by BlackH2O View Post
                            I switched from PBW to Bru-R-Ez and had to go back to PBW. My tanks were visually dirty after my normal CIP routine with the Birko product. I don't think PBW is strong enough so I switched, but there were still traces of hops that were not cleaned until we went back to PBW. The owner is so irritated at the distributor that I even have to stop using the Birko products that do work well. Just my 2 cents.
                            That is truly bizarre. Was the temp and concentration right? Did you speak with Dana about the issue? That is totally the opposite of what I have experienced. I've been using BruREze since it first hit the market in like '96. When I have come into new situations we always make the change, and always with success.

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                            • #15
                              Originally posted by wailingguitar View Post
                              I use Birko's BruREze and have never had an issue with flavors being left behind. If you like PBW for it's ease and safe handling, try BruREze.
                              I took your advice and got in some bru-r-eze, what a mistake. Didn't even clean anywhere as good as PBW and I was disappointed. Used it to CIP our fermentors, ran hot water rinse first, then the bruRez. Still had a visual ring of organic material around the top of the tank. We brew this beer minimum of twice a week and never had any ring when using PBW. So bad they gave me the 5gal pail for me to use at home. Believe me I wanted it to work, just didn't work out. My 2 cents from experience.

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