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Thread: PBW is not strong enough!!

  1. #1
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    PBW is not strong enough!!

    Hi all,

    After making hopped and especially ginger ciders, I find that running PBW though CIP doesn't get the flavour out. You can still taste hop and/or ginger, even after cycling PBW through the CIP multiple times, and for a good long time. Can anyone recommend an alternative to PBW, maybe something stronger, or an additive of some kind that can help me to clean the tank?

    Thanks all!

    Mike

  2. #2
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    Apr 2007
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    I use Birko's BruREze and have never had an issue with flavors being left behind. If you like PBW for it's ease and safe handling, try BruREze.

  3. #3
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    May 2012
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    Why not a caustic? Something that is chelated, with a good surfactant package.

  4. #4
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    Oct 2012
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    A formulated chlorinated caustic cleaner will be much more effective. However, I'm guessing it's not the cleaner that is causing your flavor carry-over. Most likely, it's soft parts, or CIP shadows.

  5. #5
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    Quote Originally Posted by AT-JeffT View Post
    A formulated chlorinated caustic cleaner will be much more effective. However, I'm guessing it's not the cleaner that is causing your flavor carry-over. Most likely, it's soft parts, or CIP shadows.
    I strongly recommend against chlorinated caustics, if by any chance you mix an acid or cip with out a proper an full purge of the concentrated co2 in the tank, it will evolve chlorine gas and it will destroy anything and everything it touches. Stainless especially. I have seen it happen(not at my brewery, but at someone elses), it is not worth it to even risk.

  6. #6
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    Quote Originally Posted by jebzter View Post
    I strongly recommend against chlorinated caustics, if by any chance you mix an acid or cip with out a proper an full purge of the concentrated co2 in the tank, it will evolve chlorine gas and it will destroy anything and everything it touches. Stainless especially. I have seen it happen(not at my brewery, but at someone elses), it is not worth it to even risk.
    I have used formulated caustics in my brewery for over 15 years without a single issue. Chlorine is an oxidizer and works at lower temperatures, caustic really starts working well at 150f and yes NEVER mix acids and chlorine. I would however be cautious just randomly mixing chlorine and caustics it can cause issues
    Mike Eme
    Brewmaster
    Cheboygan Brewery
    Cheboygan Michigan

  7. #7
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    Oct 2012
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    Quote Originally Posted by jebzter View Post
    I strongly recommend against chlorinated caustics, if by any chance you mix an acid or cip with out a proper an full purge of the concentrated co2 in the tank, it will evolve chlorine gas and it will destroy anything and everything it touches. Stainless especially. I have seen it happen(not at my brewery, but at someone elses), it is not worth it to even risk.
    It comes down to your risk tolerance. Certainly know the risks before using it.

    It was the only solution to a problem we had a while back. After 10+ years of using a PBW-like product we has bronze colored silicone stains in our fermenters. We tried caustic and it didn't touch it after a number of cycles. Chlorinated caustic got it off after one cycle.

    We use it as a nuclear option in our brewery. We try and use it twice a year on our tanks and after positive micro results.

  8. #8
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    Sep 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by wailingguitar View Post
    I use Birko's BruREze and have never had an issue with flavors being left behind. If you like PBW for it's ease and safe handling, try BruREze.

    Thanks for the tip. I'm definitely encouraged by the ease of use and safe handling. Do you have an idea why it might be better than PBW? Definitely worth a try. I wonder if I can find it in Canada!!

    Mike

  9. #9
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    Sep 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by AT-JeffT View Post
    A formulated chlorinated caustic cleaner will be much more effective. However, I'm guessing it's not the cleaner that is causing your flavor carry-over. Most likely, it's soft parts, or CIP shadows.
    Hey Jeff, thanks for your thoughts. When you say soft parts, I'm not sure what you mean. I can only think of the carb stone...but I can taste ginger in the rinse water when the carb stone is taken out. I don't think it's the fittings. Cleaning those separately doesn't change much. What else might soft parts refer to? And, are "shadows" areas that the CIp spray doesn't touch?

    Thanks again. Mike

  10. #10
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    Sep 2015
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    Quote Originally Posted by jebzter View Post
    I strongly recommend against chlorinated caustics, if by any chance you mix an acid or cip with out a proper an full purge of the concentrated co2 in the tank, it will evolve chlorine gas and it will destroy anything and everything it touches. Stainless especially. I have seen it happen(not at my brewery, but at someone elses), it is not worth it to even risk.
    Thanks for the warning!! This certainly turns me off the idea. Are there non-chlorinated caustics out there? (Is chlorinated caustic what people standardly refer to just as "caustic"?

    Thanks again, this is truly helpful.

    Mike

  11. #11
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    Sep 2015
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    Salt spring island bc Canada
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    Quote Originally Posted by AT-JeffT View Post
    It comes down to your risk tolerance. Certainly know the risks before using it.

    It was the only solution to a problem we had a while back. After 10+ years of using a PBW-like product we has bronze colored silicone stains in our fermenters. We tried caustic and it didn't touch it after a number of cycles. Chlorinated caustic got it off after one cycle.

    We use it as a nuclear option in our brewery. We try and use it twice a year on our tanks and after positive micro results.
    Thanks! Given my risk aversion, I think if I use stuff like this it will be on an annual type basis. That way I could take the time to be extra careful and do it myself so nothing goes awry!

    Cheers,
    Mike

  12. #12
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    Oct 2012
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    Palatine, IL
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    Quote Originally Posted by Mike Lachelt View Post
    Hey Jeff, thanks for your thoughts. When you say soft parts, I'm not sure what you mean. I can only think of the carb stone...but I can taste ginger in the rinse water when the carb stone is taken out. I don't think it's the fittings. Cleaning those separately doesn't change much. What else might soft parts refer to? And, are "shadows" areas that the CIp spray doesn't touch?

    Thanks again. Mike
    Mike,

    Yes CIP shadows are areas that are missed or have inadequate coverage from the CIP system/spray ball.

    Soft parts are anything non-stainless. In a fermenter, that's mostly your manway gasket.

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