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  • #16
    Originally posted by BlackH2O View Post
    I took your advice and got in some bru-r-eze, what a mistake. Didn't even clean anywhere as good as PBW and I was disappointed. Used it to CIP our fermentors, ran hot water rinse first, then the bruRez. Still had a visual ring of organic material around the top of the tank. We brew this beer minimum of twice a week and never had any ring when using PBW. So bad they gave me the 5gal pail for me to use at home. Believe me I wanted it to work, just didn't work out. My 2 cents from experience.
    Very odd. I have experienced the exact opposite. PBW has never given me as good of results as I have seen from other products including Bru-R-Eze, Cell-R-Master (both non-caustic alkaline), or Cir-Q-late. I tend to prefer the liquid (non-chlorinated) caustics myself, and have used products from Ecolab, Birko, 5-Star, Divosan, Loeffler, and a handful of others. PBW has been my worst performer. Even what I can obtain in India does a better job.

    Both Cir-Q-Late and Bru-R-Eze contain sodium metasilicate (the active ingredient in PBW) although at slightly lower levels. They do have other additives as well which should enhance the performance (matches my personal experiences). Even then, adding more product (stronger solution) should give you identical results. Not sure why you would see such a worse situation from Birko products that contain the same active ingredient. Perhaps it has something to do with the water profile you have and the additives in the Birko. I use RO, and everything else has worked better than PBW when using the manufacturers suggested dosage and temperature.

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    • #17
      Yeah that Birko's version does not work and 5 Star's does seems odd. I used to use PBW but switched to Bru-R-Ez and use it on my FVs. They sparkle every time. I use Cell-R-Master on beer lines and the Cir-Q-Late on hot side cleaning. All very effective for what I am using them for. I assume you got the dosage right. I think it is 1-2 oz/gallon between 140-160 deg for 30 minutes.

      Unfermentable: Both Cir-Q-Late and Bru-R-Eze contain sodium metasilicate (the active ingredient in PBW) although at slightly lower levels. They do have other additives as well which should enhance the performance (matches my personal experiences).

      I think you meant to say Cell-R-Master in the above quote?
      Dave Cowie
      Three Forks Bakery & Brewing Company
      Nevada City, CA

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      • #18
        I use 2 oz per gallon at about 160F even ran CPI for a bit over 30 minutes. Needless to say I was shocked as well. I will be going with Loeffler products. I wished it did work because the Birko distributor is local to me, a PIA to deal with but local. Now I will be grouping orders with 2 other area breweries to cut down of freight costs. On another note, I wish someone had told me that the Birko Ultra-Niter and Puma X, suck when it comes to cleaning high ABV and Hoppy beers. I thought I had done my research.

        Geoff

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        • #19
          I have been using Birko for a few years now and could not be any happier with all of the results.
          Fermenters - CellRMaster
          Kettle - CellRMaster
          Kettle Elements (every month) Acid Brite #2
          Lines - CellRMaster
          Kegs - UltraNiter and XPuma

          Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk

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          • #20
            Originally posted by BlackH2O View Post
            I took your advice and got in some bru-r-eze, what a mistake. Didn't even clean anywhere as good as PBW and I was disappointed. Used it to CIP our fermentors, ran hot water rinse first, then the bruRez. Still had a visual ring of organic material around the top of the tank. We brew this beer minimum of twice a week and never had any ring when using PBW. So bad they gave me the 5gal pail for me to use at home. Believe me I wanted it to work, just didn't work out. My 2 cents from experience.
            I can't even wrap my head around this, not sure where the problem might be, but my experience over a lot of years is very much contrary to your experience. If this did in fact happen, I am guessing there was either an issue of concentration of temperature. Did you call BIRKO and discuss it with them? Dana Johnson is a top-tier guy when it comes to brewery chemicals, every bit of advice he has given me over the years has been effective.

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            • #21
              Originally posted by BlackH2O View Post
              I switched from PBW to Bru-R-Ez and had to go back to PBW. My tanks were visually dirty after my normal CIP routine with the Birko product. I don't think PBW is strong enough so I switched, but there were still traces of hops that were not cleaned until we went back to PBW. The owner is so irritated at the distributor that I even have to stop using the Birko products that do work well. Just my 2 cents.
              Originally posted by wailingguitar View Post
              That is truly bizarre. Was the temp and concentration right? Did you speak with Dana about the issue? That is totally the opposite of what I have experienced. I've been using BruREze since it first hit the market in like '96. When I have come into new situations we always make the change, and always with success.
              Actually I didn't speak to Dana, never responded to my emails or phone message, their distributor was even worse. One other thing regarding chlorine, we use a fair amount of English ale yeast, and the first thing you are asked if you have a problem, do you use a chlorine based cleaners. Just saying.

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              • #22
                Originally posted by Crosley View Post
                I have been using Birko for a few years now and could not be any happier with all of the results.
                Fermenters - CellRMaster
                Kettle - CellRMaster
                Kettle Elements (every month) Acid Brite #2
                Lines - CellRMaster
                Kegs - UltraNiter and XPuma

                Sent from my Pixel using Tapatalk
                I hear you, I would love to be able to use it. Their warehouse is in the next town over and I could pike it up. But I have used the Ultra-Niter and Puma X products in my keg washer and have found hop particulate on several spears during random checks. Never an issue with the 5 Star but is was time consuming.

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                • #23
                  Originally posted by barleyfreak View Post
                  Unfermentable: Both Cir-Q-Late and Bru-R-Eze contain sodium metasilicate (the active ingredient in PBW) although at slightly lower levels. They do have other additives as well which should enhance the performance (matches my personal experiences).

                  I think you meant to say Cell-R-Master in the above quote?
                  Yes that is what I meant, thanks for catching that.

                  Consider me skeptical of where this is coming from. It sounds like someone who has a bias against Birko to me. Now the Ultra-Niter and X-Puma don't work either. Dana didn't return call or email to a customer who need help with a product issue and specifically sought him out. The other products with basically the same actual chemicals work. Seems fishy.

                  Used these products for many years in different location and different brew houses, and different water profiles always with good results. Not to say they are the best, necessarily, but I have manually inspected kegs cleaned with Ultr-Niter/X-Puma combo and sanitized with the Birk-OX and they were spotless. Re-passivated tanks, spotless. 7BBL up to 120BBL. And yes I dry hopped around 1.5# per BBL and 1.5# per BBL hot side in some. Cleaned with the Cir-Q-Late, Cell-R-Master, and Bru-R-Eze. Again 7-120's. Worked great. I know at least a dozen brewers who have experienced the same as well.

                  Met Dana a handful of times, and he is a genuinely caring guy who actually home brews as well. He gets back to me quickly when I ask him to re-send data sheets. Even when I am literally half way around the world, have an 11.5 hour time difference, and don't even purchase his products. I can't get the Birko here easily, so I use the concentration rates and procedures from Birko with equivalent chemicals and they work exactly the same. I find it very hard to believe he would just ignore an issue brought on by a concerned customer.

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                  • #24
                    Originally posted by UnFermentable View Post
                    Yes that is what I meant, thanks for catching that.

                    Consider me skeptical of where this is coming from. It sounds like someone who has a bias against Birko to me. Now the Ultra-Niter and X-Puma don't work either. Dana didn't return call or email to a customer who need help with a product issue and specifically sought him out. The other products with basically the same actual chemicals work. Seems fishy.

                    Used these products for many years in different location and different brew houses, and different water profiles always with good results. Not to say they are the best, necessarily, but I have manually inspected kegs cleaned with Ultr-Niter/X-Puma combo and sanitized with the Birk-OX and they were spotless. Re-passivated tanks, spotless. 7BBL up to 120BBL. And yes I dry hopped around 1.5# per BBL and 1.5# per BBL hot side in some. Cleaned with the Cir-Q-Late, Cell-R-Master, and Bru-R-Eze. Again 7-120's. Worked great. I know at least a dozen brewers who have experienced the same as well.

                    Met Dana a handful of times, and he is a genuinely caring guy who actually home brews as well. He gets back to me quickly when I ask him to re-send data sheets. Even when I am literally half way around the world, have an 11.5 hour time difference, and don't even purchase his products. I can't get the Birko here easily, so I use the concentration rates and procedures from Birko with equivalent chemicals and they work exactly the same. I find it very hard to believe he would just ignore an issue brought on by a concerned customer.
                    Agree, I've been dealing with Dana since 1996 and he has always been Johnny on the spot when it comes to returning calls. Usually it is within an hour, the longest I have ever had to wait was, at most, 24 hours. There are only 2 guys that I will go to with brewing chemical questions; Dana Johnson and Dirk Loeffler. Agree that this all sounds like some sort of bias/smear job.

                    In addition to using BruREze for tank and brewhouse cleaning, we use Dana's keg cleaning routine (Ultra Niter/XPuma) and I couldn't be happier with the results.

                    Not sure about the 'distributor' thing, I have always purchased direct from BIRKO. Now that Country Malt is distributing their products, I may piggyback chemical with malt, but that remains to be seen.

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                    • #25
                      I might as well pipe in again. I agree with the above regarding Dana at Birko. Always answers in a timely fashion. Always. Has always provided me the information/advice I need. And I too have had great success with the Ultra-Niter/XPuma combo for both kegs AND cold cleaning serving tanks. In fact it was Dana's article on cold cleaning bright tanks pressure that got me doing it and though he indicates one is supposed to be using a rotating spray ball in that case, I have been using static and the serving tanks still come out spotless. Same with the FV's with BruREz and I have dry hopped at as much as a 2#/bbl rate for the double ipa.
                      Dave Cowie
                      Three Forks Bakery & Brewing Company
                      Nevada City, CA

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                      • #26
                        +1 for BruREz Been using it for 13 years. The only variance in cleaning performance I have noticed has come from water temp not being hot enough (120-140f), we preheat the tank with a hot liquor rinse now. Also not using the correct concentration. I have seen in a few instances the need to run the cycle longer if you have left a tank empty and dirty for a long period of time letting the dirt ring crush up nice and hard. BruREz is bullet proof, and very user friendly compared to caustics. Also make sure your pump has enough head pressure to feed you sprayball correctly.
                        Joel Halbleib
                        Partner / Zymurgist
                        Hive and Barrel Meadery
                        6302 Old La Grange Rd
                        Crestwood, KY
                        www.hiveandbarrel.com

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                        • #27
                          Originally posted by wailingguitar View Post
                          Agree, I've been dealing with Dana since 1996 and he has always been Johnny on the spot when it comes to returning calls. Usually it is within an hour, the longest I have ever had to wait was, at most, 24 hours. There are only 2 guys that I will go to with brewing chemical questions; Dana Johnson and Dirk Loeffler. Agree that this all sounds like some sort of bias/smear job.

                          In addition to using BruREze for tank and brewhouse cleaning, we use Dana's keg cleaning routine (Ultra Niter/XPuma) and I couldn't be happier with the results.

                          Not sure about the 'distributor' thing, I have always purchased direct from BIRKO. Now that Country Malt is distributing their products, I may piggyback chemical with malt, but that remains to be seen.
                          Does anyone have an email address for Dana?

                          I cant find proper mixing doses for any of their chemicals.

                          TIA!

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                          • #28
                            Originally posted by beachstatus View Post
                            Does anyone have an email address for Dana?

                            I cant find proper mixing doses for any of their chemicals.

                            TIA!
                            djohnson at birkocorp dot com
                            Dave Cowie
                            Three Forks Bakery & Brewing Company
                            Nevada City, CA

                            Comment


                            • #29
                              At risk of being too commercial with my reply, could I offer some help?

                              We have a product called AmBrew Cleanser that our users love and it works on some different principles than the brute force of alkalinity (caustic or metasilicate) joined with chelating agents. I mean, we do have alkalinity and chelating agents, but the trick in making those work is based in interfacial chemistry, which is my focus as a researcher and consultant.

                              If anyone would send me a private message, I'll send you a sample of the product and further information.

                              Rick Theiner
                              LOGIC, Inc.
                              LOGIC, Inc.
                              Environmentally Friendly Cleaners and Sanitizers
                              www.ecologiccleansers.com

                              Comment


                              • #30
                                I wonder if local water chemistry is whats making the difference for some here? I say this because I have no problems with using plain old pbw and occasionally a strong solution of saniclean afterwards to clean all our small 3bbl tanks with a 3/4hp pump and rotating cip ball? I realize the size is likely working in our favor here though.

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