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Thread: Sanitizer for CIP

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
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    Salt spring island bc Canada
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    25

    Sanitizer for CIP

    Against my own better judgment, I've been running sulfite through the CIP of my bright tank. I know that it can be damaging to stainless steel, but I can't come up with an alternative.

    Most people here like PAA. I've got a tub of the stuff, still unopened. I don't have the HASMAT gear necessary to start mixing it, and can't stand the idea of having to wear that stuff every time I need to sanitize my tank. And I can't stand the idea of it; I don't want dangerous stuff around, and I don't want the entire building to constantly smell of PAA.

    Yet, everything else seems to have some unfortunate downside, creating off flavours or what not. (As I've read of idophor and chlorine based sanitizers); or, impossible foaming (as with saniclean and starsan, making it impossible to run through CIP). Sulfite is so easy, so harmless, and works well, but for the fact that its slowly going to ruin my tank... which I can't allow.

    What can I do? Will hydrogen peroxide work as a sanitizer? Is there anything else? Or do I really have to suit up and hope I can mix PAA properly, and search god knows where for the directions, and feel as if life and limb are at risk? Blindness, for god's sake. All I want to do is make cider!

    Thanks all,

    Mike

  2. #2
    Join Date
    Dec 2013
    Location
    Colorado
    Posts
    214
    Call Dana Johnson at Birko (djohnson@birkocorp.com). He will get you all set up with an Activated Chlorine Dioxide process that is great.

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  3. #3
    Join Date
    Apr 2015
    Location
    Lakewood, CO
    Posts
    23
    I use PAA regularly to sanitize parts. We have a manual pump (like a soap dispenser) on the concentrate bucket, and I wear nitrile gloves and goggles when mixing. Never had a problem. And though I understand and share your distaste for the smell, it doesn't build up. You get a whiff of vinegar when actually using the PAA you've mixed, but once you're done, and dump out the sani, the odor doesn't stick around long. As for Sani Clean, yes, it foams a bit, but I regularly use it to CIP tanks, and if you wait a few minutes after shutting the pump off to drain the tank, most of the foam will have dissipated, especially if you don't heat it up too much. Hope this helps.

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Nov 2005
    Location
    Atlanta, GA
    Posts
    15
    Dear Mike:

    If you wanted to follow the wine industry and actually use sulfite as a sanitizer, you would need to use sulfur dioxide, which is a pretty toxic product not just to your bacteria but also to you. Worse than PAA. Sulfite is used as a preservative but does. It work well as a sanitizer.

    Acid anionics such as Starsan or the like are homebrew products that have huge gaps in coverage and do not offer sufficient protection in a commercial brewery. And as you correctly stated, iodophors and other sanitizers can cause protein haze, off flavors or kill your head retention if not thoroughly rinsed. Peracetic Acid or PAA does have excellent efficacy, and he product breaks down into components already in beer. If overused or excessive PAA gets into the beer, instantaneous oxidation through the oxygen radical takes place. TDO values remain unchanged.

    Peracetic Acid does smell pungent but if handled correctly it is not more dangerous than caustic or acid or even Starsan.

    PAA can be manufactured in different ways and stabilized differently, all of which will affect how volatile the finished product is. I can't speak for other products but our products can barely be detected in use solution and even an open drum can only be detected as a light scent of vinegar. Handle the product gently and provide good ventilation, and I will be a no-event. Life and limbs will remain intact.

    Contact me directly for more information and I assure you with proper guidance and knowledge about the product you will not mind using it a bit.

    Cheers,

    Dirk Loeffler
    Technical Director
    Loeffler Chemical Corporation
    loeffler.dirk@loefflerchemical.com



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk
    Loeffler Chemical Corporation
    (404) 629-0999
    800-769-5020 (US & Canada only)
    www.loefflerchemical.com

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Apr 2007
    Location
    Florence, Alabama
    Posts
    562
    Nitrile gloves and safety glasses are all you need for PAA, and as mentioned the smell doesn't linger.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    May 2012
    Location
    Livermore, CA
    Posts
    451
    What hazmat equipment do you think you need? Gloves and a face shield or goggles at most is what you would need. I routinely handle the stuff bare handed, while it turns my skin ghost white for about 30 minutes if I get any splashes on me, that is it. I wouldn't recommend getting it into your eyes, that can potentially cause damage. Whoever told you that you needed full hazmat gear was misinformed.

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Salt spring island bc Canada
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    25
    Quote Originally Posted by jebzter View Post
    What hazmat equipment do you think you need? Gloves and a face shield or goggles at most is what you would need. I routinely handle the stuff bare handed, while it turns my skin ghost white for about 30 minutes if I get any splashes on me, that is it. I wouldn't recommend getting it into your eyes, that can potentially cause damage. Whoever told you that you needed full hazmat gear was misinformed.
    Thanks for the encouragement. No one told me, it's just my sense of caution. I have staff I care about, and can't accept their skin going white for 1/2 an hour under any circumstances. I guess gloves mitigate the risk but it makes me squeamish. Anyhow, nice to hear about your own experience. Greatly appreciated.

    Hanks,
    Mike

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Salt spring island bc Canada
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by wailingguitar View Post
    Nitrile gloves and safety glasses are all you need for PAA, and as mentioned the smell doesn't linger.
    Thanks, good to hear that! M

  9. #9
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Salt spring island bc Canada
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by Dirk Loeffler View Post
    Dear Mike:

    If you wanted to follow the wine industry and actually use sulfite as a sanitizer, you would need to use sulfur dioxide, which is a pretty toxic product not just to your bacteria but also to you. Worse than PAA. Sulfite is used as a preservative but does. It work well as a sanitizer.

    Acid anionics such as Starsan or the like are homebrew products that have huge gaps in coverage and do not offer sufficient protection in a commercial brewery. And as you correctly stated, iodophors and other sanitizers can cause protein haze, off flavors or kill your head retention if not thoroughly rinsed. Peracetic Acid or PAA does have excellent efficacy, and he product breaks down into components already in beer. If overused or excessive PAA gets into the beer, instantaneous oxidation through the oxygen radical takes place. TDO values remain unchanged.

    Peracetic Acid does smell pungent but if handled correctly it is not more dangerous than caustic or acid or even Starsan.

    PAA can be manufactured in different ways and stabilized differently, all of which will affect how volatile the finished product is. I can't speak for other products but our products can barely be detected in use solution and even an open drum can only be detected as a light scent of vinegar. Handle the product gently and provide good ventilation, and I will be a no-event. Life and limbs will remain intact.

    Contact me directly for more information and I assure you with proper guidance and knowledge about the product you will not mind using it a bit.

    Cheers,

    Dirk Loeffler
    Technical Director
    Loeffler Chemical Corporation
    [email]loeffler.dirk@loefflerchemical.com[/emai



    Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

    Thanks for all the info dirk, I'll give you a ring today sometime. Mike

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Sep 2015
    Location
    Salt spring island bc Canada
    Posts
    25
    Quote Originally Posted by spetrovits View Post
    I use PAA regularly to sanitize parts. We have a manual pump (like a soap dispenser) on the concentrate bucket, and I wear nitrile gloves and goggles when mixing. Never had a problem. And though I understand and share your distaste for the smell, it doesn't build up. You get a whiff of vinegar when actually using the PAA you've mixed, but once you're done, and dump out the sani, the odor doesn't stick around long. As for Sani Clean, yes, it foams a bit, but I regularly use it to CIP tanks, and if you wait a few minutes after shutting the pump off to drain the tank, most of the foam will have dissipated, especially if you don't heat it up too much. Hope this helps.
    The pump option sounds very helpful!! Good to know that's an option out there. As for saniclean, doesn't the foam start interfering with the pump? I find even pbw can frustrate with the pump if the water is too warm...

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